The Two Sides of the Argument
There are at least two sides to this argument. On the one hand, this article shows that:
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- Jesus has always existed,
- God created all things through Him,
- Jesus, as the Only Begotten Son, is God’s true family,
- Jesus is equal to God,
- We must worship Jesus, and
- The Bible refers to Jesus as theos.
On the other hand, the New Testament consistently distinguishes between God and Jesus and indicates that Jesus is subordinate to God. In other words, the New Testament reserves the title “God” for the Father. This article seeks a solution that will satisfy these seemingly contradictory statements.
The current article is a summary of the articles on this website on the question; Is Jesus the Most High?
Unless otherwise indicated, all quotations on this website are from the New American Standard Bible (NASB).
The Four Views of the Som
Some propose that Jesus did not exist before He was born. For example, see Dr. Tuggy’s website.
In the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ view, Jesus is a created being; the first created being who created all other things, yet still a created being.
The traditional view of the church, as in the Trinity doctrine, is that He always existed; co-equal with the Father.
A fourth view is that He was neither created nor co-equal with the Father, but that He came forth from the being of God (begotten) when or before this universe was created. That means that He is subordinate to the Father. And since time began when this universe was created, that means that Jesus ‘always’ existed. But beyond this universe is the incomprehensible reality that caused the universe. Of that reality, we know nothing, except that it has no beginning and no cause.
The purpose of this article is to evaluate these views. This subject requires humility, for humans are not able to understand God. We need to accept this inability with joy, for then we will also appreciate a little of His greatness.
God created all things through His Son.
God created all things: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1; cf. Isa 44:24; cf. 42:5; 45:18; Matt 19:4-6). But God created all things “through” Jesus:
“In the beginning was the Word …
All things came into being through Him”
(John 1:1-3; cf. Col 1:16-17 and Heb 1:2).
“The Word” is Jesus (see John 1:14).
In the NASB, Colossians 1:16 reads that “by Him all things were created.” This seems to give Him an active role in creation, but later that same verse says that “all things have been created through Him.” This seems to indicate a passive role. The preposition that is translated as “by” earlier in the verse is the Greek word en, and its first meaning is “in.” To say that “in Him all things were created” indicates a passive role.
Similarly, Paul concluded as follows on the different roles of God and Jesus in creation:
“There is but one God, the Father,
from whom are all things …
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6).
In conclusion, God is the Source of all creative power and wisdom, but He creates all things through “His Son.” Consequently, He also sustains all things through His Son (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3).
Jesus is not a created being.
15 “He is … the firstborn of all creation,”
16 “for by (en = in) Him all things were created
both in (en = in) the heavens and on earth …
all things have been created through Him
and for Him”
17 “He is before all things,
and in (en = in) Him all things hold together.
(Col 1:15-16).
The word “for” in verse 16 implies a relationship between His description as “firstborn of all creation” and the fact that He created all things. This relationship may be explained in at least two ways:
Most Important
Since the firstborn child in the Jewish family enjoyed special privileges, the phrase “firstborn,” in the Jewish system, came to mean “the most important.” David, for example, the youngest son of Jesse, was named “firstborn” (Psalm 89:20–27). This interpretation is supported by Colossians 1:18 and Revelation 1:5, where Jesus is also the “firstborn from the dead.” He was not literally the first person to be raised from death, but He was the most important person ever to be resurrected from death.
It is, therefore, possible to understand the “for” as saying that Jesus is “the first-born of all creation” for (because) He is the most important being in the universe. However, that would imply that He is part of creation and, therefore, a created being.
First in Time
Alternatively, the “for” may be read as a time sequence, namely “by Him all things were created” for (because) He was the first to exist (“the firstborn of all creation”). Then “firstborn” has a literal meaning.
This interpretation is supported by the next verse which also indicates a time sequence: “He is before all things” (Col 1:17). In other words, “firstborn of all creation” has the same meaning as “He is before all things.” What the writer meant, it seems, is that Jesus was the first to exist. But this may also mean that He is a created being.
Not a created being
But the following implies that He is NOT a created being:
Firstly, since God created “all things” through Him (Col 1:16-17), He is not one of the created things.
Secondly, “every created thing” give glory “to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb” (Rev 5:13). This also implies that He is not one of the created things.
These are tentative proposals because words such as “all” and “every” are often used relative to the context and not literally true.
Thirdly, He is not the first created, but “born,” as in the word “firstborn.” Elsewhere, the Bible describes Him as “begotten” (e.g., John 3:18). Here, “born” is symbolic language. What it means for Jesus to have been born of God we should not speculate.
See the article Jesus in Colossians for further discussion.
Revelation 3:14 similarly describes Him as “the Beginning of the creation of God.” For some this is evidence that Jesus is a created being; God’s first creation.
Jesus always existed.
There are Christians who do not believe that Jesus existed before He was born as a human being. This article shows that Jesus:
Existed before He was born: “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).
From eternity: “In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1).
In the “form of God” and with “equality with God” (Phil 2:6).
“Emptied Himself” of “equality with God” (Phil 2:7).
Descended from heaven: “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?” (John 6:62)
From God: “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father” (John 16:28).
Sent by God: “God … sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom 8:3).
“Became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (John 1:14, NIV).
Jesus appeared as God.
Before He became a human being, Jesus existed in “the form of God” (Phil 2:5-6). The article – Where do we find Jesus in the Old Testament? – proposes that all visible, bodily appearances of God, that are recorded in the Old Testament, actually were appearances of Jesus. This would, for instance, include the appearance of YHVH in human form to Abraham (Gen 18:1). It might also include Isaiah’s vision: “I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple” (Isa 6:1).
Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.
That article proposes that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Consistent with this proposal, Jesus claimed God’s Old Testament names for Himself:
God identified Himself as, “I AM has sent me to you … This is My Name for ever” (Exo 3:15-18). Jesus claimed this name. He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:24, 58). When the soldiers came to capture Him, Jesus said to them, “I am,” and the soldiers “drew back and fell to the ground” (John 18:6 – “He” was added by the translators.)
“The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God” (Exo 20:10). But Jesus claimed to be “the Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28).
The apostles also claimed names for Jesus that are used in the Old Testament for God:
“The LORD” (YHVH) said, “there is no savior besides Me” (Isa 43:11). But Jesus is the “source of eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9), being “able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him” (Heb 7:25).
Both “the LORD” (YHVH) and Jesus are “the first and … the last,” “the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End” (Isa 44:6; 48:12; Rev 1:8, 17-18; 21:6 22:13).
Both the One “whom no man has seen or can see” and Jesus are called “King of kings and Lord of lords” (1 Tim 6:14-16; Rev 17:14 & 19:16).
Conclusion: Jesus appeared as God to the Old Testament people.
Jesus has equality with God.
Jesus had “equality with God” before He became human (Phil 2:5-6). If He had equality with God prior to His birth, He again today has equality with God. We see other profound statements of equality in the New Testament:
To Both, every knee will bow: God said, “to Me every knee will bow” (Isa 45:23), but Paul wrote that to “Jesus every knee should bow” (Phil 2: 10-11).
They receive equal honor: “All will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him” (John 5:23).
Only the Father knows the Son: “No one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son” (Matt 11:27).
The Father shows the Son all things: “The Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing” (John 5:19-20).
God and Jesus are always together.
The equality of Jesus to God is also seen in the fact that God and Jesus are always together:
Together in the beginning: “In the beginning was the Word … was with God” (John 1:1).
Together in believers: “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him” (John 14:23).
Create together: God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” (Gen 1:26; John 1:3).
Own all things together: “All things that the Father has are Mine” (John 16:15; cf. 17:10).
Glorified together: Jesus prayed, “Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17:5).
Work together: Jesus said, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working” (John 5:17).
Judge together: “My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me” (John 8:16).
Protect believers together: “My sheep hear My voice … and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29).
Jesus has God’s attributes.
The equality of Jesus to God is lastly evidenced by the fact that Jesus has God’s attributes:
Wisdom and knowledge: Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6). In Jesus Christ “are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col 2:3).
Omnipresence: “Where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst” (Matt 18:20). “I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matt 28:20; cf. Acts 18:9-10)
Deity: “All the fullness of Deity dwells in Christ in bodily form” (Col 2:9).
Conclusion: Jesus is equal to God. Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). For further discussion, see Jesus in Philippians and I and the Father are One.
Jesus became a human being.
God so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten Son. Jesus came forth from the Father. He “descended from heaven,” “from God;” and “from the Father.” (John 3:13; 6:33-38, 62; 8:23;16:28). He “emptied Himself” of the “form of God” and of “equality with God.” He took on “the form of a bond-servant … being made in the likeness of men” (Phil 2:6-7). He descended from heaven and became a mere human baby, without any knowledge or wisdom.
Jesus is distinct from God.
So far, we argued that:
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- God created all things through Jesus,
- Jesus, Himself, was not created,
- There never was a time when Jesus did not exist,
- Jesus appears in the form of God, and that
- Jesus has equality with God.
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But the New Testament also consistently and clearly distinguishes between God and Jesus. For instance:
(1) Paul introduced His letters with statements such as:
“Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Philemon 1:3; Eph 1:2).
(2) In both the Old and New Testament we find statements that there is but one God, for instance, “there is no God besides Me” (Isa 44:6). But then we read categorical statements that Jesus is distinct from that one true God, for instance:
“There is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5).
(3) The book of Revelation several times distinguishes between Christ and God. For example:
“These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb” (Rev 14:4).
(4) The following are other examples of statements that separate Jesus from God:
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me” (John 14:1).
God is invisible, for instance, “no one has seen God at any time” (1 John 4:12). But Jesus is visible, and therefore distinct from God.
Jesus prayed, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3).
In Gethsemane Jesus “fell on His face and prayed, saying, ’My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will’” (Matt 26:39). This indicates that the Father and the Son have separate and distinct wills.
As stated above, Jesus has “equality with God” and was in “the form of God” before He became a human being. This also means that He is distinct from God.
Conclusion: These are only a few of the many statements in the New Testament that make a distinction between God and Jesus. For further discussion, see Jesus is distinct from God.
Jesus is subordinate to God.
As stated, In the view of many, Jesus always was co-equal with the Father. But the mere fact that He is the Son already implies that He is subordinate to the Father. Other such indications of this include the following:
Jesus said, “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).
Jesus refers to God as “My God,” for instance “I ascend to My Father and to your Father, to My God and to your God” (John 20:17). And He prayed to God, for instance, “He offered up both prayers … to the One able to save Him from death” (Heb 5:7; cf. Matt 26:39).-
God sent the Son into the world (e.g. John 3:16).
Jesus did not know all things, but the Father does (Matt 24:36).
Everything which His Son has, He received from His Father. The Holy Spirit, the ability to raise the dead, the authority to judge, “what to say and what to speak,” His works and disciples, “all authority in heaven and on earth” and even the fullness of Deity He received from the Father. (Matt 28:18; Luke 10:22; John 1:32-34; 5:22, 36, 26-29; John 6:44; 12:49; 17:1-2; Col 1:19; 2:9).
That Jesus is subordinate to God emphasizes the fact that Jesus is distinct from God. In other words, the New Testament reserves the title “God” for the Father exclusively.
Jesus is always subordinate to God.
Defenders of Christ’s deity often argue that He was subordinate to God only when He became a human being; when He emptied Himself of the form of God and of equality with God. However, the following indicates that He was subordinate to God before He became a human being:
God sent His only begotten Son into this world (John 3:18) and gave Him what to say and what to do (John 12:49).
The following indicates that Jesus is also still subordinate to God after His ascension
He is seated today “at the right hand of the throne of God” (Heb 12:2). Jesus “was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God” (Mark 16:19). This is the position of power over the entire universe, subject only to God, but confirms that Jesus is still both distinct from God and subordinate to God.
According to the Bible, there is only one God; “Hear, O Israel, God is One.” Paul, writing after Jesus’ ascension, defined Jesus as distinct from the “one God”:
“There is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5).
“There is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things … and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6).
Paul categorically stated that “God is the head of Christ” (1 Cor 11:3).
For these reasons the general understanding in the Church, that Jesus is co-equal to the Father, cannot be correct. For a further discussion, see Jesus is subordinate to God.
“God” refers to the Father alone.
Since the New Testament makes a distinction between God and Jesus, we conclude that “God” is used for the Father exclusively.
The angel Gabriel said to Mary:
“You will conceive … and bear a son,
and you shall name Him Jesus.
He … will be called the Son of the Most High …
The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
and for that reason the holy Child
shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:30-35)
Gabriel, therefore, referred to Jesus both as “the Son of God” and “the Son of the Most High.” This means that the “Most High” is “God.” When the Bible makes statements such as that God is invisible (Col 1:15), or that Jesus sits at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19), or “there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5) then the Bible uses the title “God” exclusively for the Most High.
Since Jesus is “the Son of the Most High,” Jesus often referred to the Most High as “Father.” This means that the title “Father” refers to “God.” This is confirmed by the following:
Jesus said: “I ascend to My Father and to your Father,
to My God and to your God” (John 20:17).
Jesus said that He has come “from God” (John 8:42), but also said that He has come “from the Father” (John 16:28).
Paul similarly wrote, “Do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father” (Col 3:17). Or, “there is but one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 8:6; cf. 1 Cor 15:24).
We must worship Jesus.
Only God may be worshiped. For instance, Jesus quoted the Ten Commandments, “you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only” (Luke 4:8). And when John worshiped the angel, the angel prevented him from doing so, instructing him to “worship God” (Rev 19:10). Defenders of Christ’s deity then point out that Jesus is worshiped in the New Testament.
In the King James translation of the New Testament, there are 13 verses in which Jesus is worshiped. The Greek word translated as “worship” in the New Testament is proskuneó. But “worship” is not always a good translation for proskuneó: “Worship” implies that God or a god is worshiped, while proskuneó often simply means to show respect to another created being:
This can be seen in how proskuneó is used in the New Testament. For instance, “Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him” (Matt 20:20; KJV).
This is also confirmed by the dictionary definitions of the Greek word proskuneó, for instance, “to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior.”
Therefore, the fact that people and angels proskuneó Jesus does not prove that He is God. But there is real proof in the New Testament that Jesus is worshiped. A good example is Revelation 5:13. Another example is, “all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him” (John 5:23). Jesus must be worshiped. Jesus has equality with God in our esteem and affections.
Why do we worship Jesus?
Jesus is not worshiped because He is God, but because:
(1) It was God who gave Jesus “the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW” (Phil 2:9-11). It was God who instructed the angels to worship Jesus (Heb 1:6).
(2) To worship Jesus is to worship God: “at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW … to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:9-11). See Jesus in Philippians for an explanation of this text.
Jesus, therefore, is not worshiped independently of or co-equal with God. When we worship Jesus, we worship “to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:9-11). Our worship flows through Jesus to God.
This is an important principle, namely that God always works with the creation through Jesus. God creates through Jesus, God redeems through Jesus, and God is worshiped through Jesus. For a further discussion, see Jesus is worshiped. Does that mean that He is God?
Only Begotten Son
Another argument used by defenders of Christ’s deity is that Jesus is God’s Only Begotten Son (John 1:14; 1:18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9), and just like the son of a human father is also a human, the Son of God must also be God.
“Only begotten” translates the Greek word monogenēs. Monogenēs combines two words, namely monos (alone) and génos (family, offspring). “Only begotten” means that He is God’s true family. Believers are adopted as sons of God, but Jesus is God’s real family.
However, “Only Begotten Son” is symbolic language. It reflects in human language something which is beyond human comprehension. It must not be understood literally, as if Jesus is of the same substance as God. We cannot use this symbolic phrase to counter the clear and consistent evidence of the New Testament that Jesus is distinct from God. For a further discussion, see Only Begotten Son of God.
Jesus is called God.
The Question
It was shown above that Jesus has always existed, has equality with God, is God’s only true family, that God created all things through Him, and that we must worship Jesus to the glory of God. But it was also found that “God” refers to only the Father, which means that Jesus is not God. But, in the New Testament, Jesus is called God. Does that mean that Jesus is God?
The word “God” in the Old Testament
In the Hebrew Old Testament, the God of Israel has a unique name that is not used for any other being. That name is YHVH, pronounced as Jehovah or Yahweh. “God” (elohim), in contrast, is used both for the true God and for false gods. Therefore, the Old Testament uses various techniques to be specific when the true God is intended. Often the title “God” is combined with YHVH, for instance, “the LORD God” or “the LORD his God.” In other instances, YHVH is used in the immediate context. In other words, the term “God” is not a unique identifier or a name for the God of the Bible.
The word “God” in the New Testament
The Hebrew name YHVH is found all over the Old Testament but does not appear at all in the New Testament. Instead, the NT uses the term “God” (theos) as a name for the One True God, with no further identification. However, theos is a common noun that is also applied to false gods and to certain exalted created beings. The term “God,” therefore, is used in two ways. In most instances, it is a name for the true God. But occasionally it is used as a common noun for false gods and even for people.
Jesus is called God.
The New Testament uses theos (God) more than 1000 times. In seven instances theos refers explicitly to Jesus. This does not prove that Jesus is the same as or equal to the Only True and invisible God, because in the vast majority of instances the NT makes a distinction between God and Jesus. Stated differently, the New Testament reserves “God” as a name for the Father exclusively. Furthermore, “god” is also used for false gods and for exalted created beings.
John 1:1
This principle may be illustrated by means of John 1:1:
This verse starts by saying, “the Word was with God.” “God” in this phrase is used as a name for the Father, similar to the name YHVH, to uniquely identify the Father. This implies that Jesus is distinct from God and therefore not God.
The verse continues to say “and the Word was God.” Here John uses to the common meaning of the word “god” to describe Jesus as our God. Other people have other gods, but Jesus is our God.
This does not mean that Jesus is God, for the title “God” is reserved for the Father, “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see” (1 Tim 6:16).
Jesus is our God because He was in the beginning with God and God created all things through Him. Everything may perish, but Jesus will always remain the same. He is “over all” and He is our “Savior” who “gave Himself for us to redeem us.”
Bad Question – Since the word theos is used in two ways, the question, of whether Jesus is God, is a bad question. The New Testament uses “God” as a name for the uncaused Cause of all things, who cannot be seen. Then Jesus is not God. But theos is also used for the one that a person worships and obeys. Then Jesus is the Christian God. “All will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.”
Other Articles
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- Is Jesus the Most High? – List of all articles
- The Trinity Doctrine – List of all articles
- All articles on this website
God cannot contradict himself and he tells us in sacred scriptures to worship God alone. Jesus said, “you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only” (Mat 4:10). This is also stated in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-5). Since then, if he commands us to worship his Son (Hebrews 1:6), this can only mean that his Son is God like him in the fullest sense of the word. The Son cannot be a lesser God or another God for that would be tantamount to polytheism – something which is contrary to the central theme in both in the OT and NT that there is only One God.
Hi Ramon, I have much sympathy with your view. But tell me, why was it necessary for God to tell the angels to worship His Son (Hebrews 1:6; cf. Phil. 2:9-10), and why is the Father alone designated as “God” in the context (Hebrews 1:1; cf. Phil. 2:9). And if Jesus is equal to God the Father, why does Hebrews 1 try so hard to convince the readers that Jesus is “much better than the angels” (Heb. 1:4). Why does Hebrews 1 not just say that Jesus is God? In verse 8 Jesus is called “God,” but the very next verse says the Father is His God. How do you understand that? Regards, Andries
Hi Andries, you did not address Ramon’s concern. God cannot self-contradict. If He commands that the Son be worshiped, it is because the Son is God, for only God is to be worshiped. The Father would be sanctioning IDOLATRY if the Son is not God but is commanded to be worshiped. The last I checked, worshiping anyone besides Almighty God is idolatry, or does your Bible say differently?
Andries: The English word worship does imply that it is God, but the Greek word translated “worship” simply means to show respect. It does not mean that it is God.
Mfon: If we are commanded to honor two persons EQUALLY it is only because the two persons are ONE and EQUAL just as the Scriptures make abundantly clear!
Andries: The Bible is clear that the Father is the uncaused Cause of all things and that the Son came forth from Him. Still, we must show the same respect to both. We must find an explanation that satisfies both requirements.
Mfon: If the Son was a lesser God at creation, that would make two Gods at creation but the Scriptures make it clear in Isaiah that there was no other God at creation besides Him (Isaiah 44:24). That God said in Isaiah 44:6 that besides Him there is no God.
Andries: The New Testament refers to the Father alone as God.
Mfon: The Father is called “First and the Last” as you rightly showed in another of your posts but Jesus also calls Himself the First and the Last. Are they two Gods? No, but one.
Andries: What that means, in my view, is that both are eternal; both always existed. But in the infinity beyond the universe, the Father begat the Son in a way that is completely beyond human understanding.
Mfon: In the NT often to distinguish between the Father and the Son, the Father is called God but that does not exclude the Son. John 1:1 already states He is God. Thomas called Him “my God” and Thomas was a monotheistic Jew. Isaiah says the Son will be called mighty God, the same as YHWH is called.
Andries: John 1:1 should read, “the Word is like God.” See my article series on that verse. Thomas said “my god.” Remember, the Greek of the New Testament does not have a word equivalent to “God.” Theos means “god.” It is translated “God” based on the Trinity doctrine. The same applies to Isaiah.
Mfon: The NT also identifies that there is ONE Lord (Eph4:4) and in 1Cor8:6 it states that that one Lord is Jesus Christ. Does this mean the Father is not Lord? Jude1:4 (ASV, NWT) states clearly that Jesus is our ONLY MASTER (or OWNER) and LORD. Does that mean the Father is not Lord, that He does not own us? No, for in many other places the Father is called Lord. The Father is Lord on the same level as the Son.
Andries: You jump right over Eph4:4 and 1Cor8:6. These verses make it clear that Jesus is no “God.” I am trying to provide a balanced view of Scriptures that may seem contradictory. Your approach seems to be to ignore the evidence against your view. The Father is, obviously, also Lord. My point is that the Son received everything He has from the Father, even to have life in Himself. I am concerned that in elevating the Son to the level of the “God,” we devalue the Father.
Mfon: In fact, this is the condition for salvation of your soul. You cannot be saved unless you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that JESUS IS LORD (and mind you, there is only ONE LORDSHIP, shared by Father and Son). And Paul went on to add elsewhere (1Cor12:3) that only one with the Spirit of God can call Jesus “THE LORD”. The meaning of this is that those who make Jesus into a lesser Lord (like the Watchtower does) or lesser “god” do not have the Spirit of God. (By the way, the Holy Ghost is also called Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of His Son).
Andries: The condition for salvation is that you must care for the orphan and widow and people in prison (Matthew 25?). To have the right knowledge will not save you
Mfon: Why was it necessary for God to tell the angels to worship His Son (Hebrews 1:6; cf. Phil. 2:9-10)? Simple, because Jesus, in his incarnation, has emptied Himself and taken on the nature of man, the form of a servant, being made a little lower than Angels whom He created. Notice that command was only necessary when Jesus came into the world (Heb1:6a). So that Angels would not do what men did, refusing to honor Him, refusing to worship Him!
Andries: That is a valid point. However, in Philippians 2, “God highly exalted Him” after His death (v9). Here, again, it is “>God” who exalted Him, implying that Jesus is not God. It amazes me how people can read but see not, hear, but listen not.
Mfon: Why is the Father alone designated as “God” in the context (Hebrews 1:1; cf. Phil. 2:9). Again, simply because it is speaking of Jesus exaltation as A MAN.
By creation, He owns all things but now as a MAN, our representative, He is exalted, worshiped and empowered, as a man. All men should pray to God, so Jesus in this context as a man must have His God, the Father.
Andries: No. The New Testament ALWAYS speak of the Father as God. In Revelation, 60 years after His death, Jesus still refers to the Father as “My God” (3:12). This has nothing to do with Him becoming a man.
Mfon: And if Jesus is equal to God the Father, why does Hebrews 1 try so hard to convince the readers that Jesus is “much better than the angels” (Heb. 1:4). He is the Son of Man! Though a Man, He is much better than the Angels (whom He created in His pre-incarnation),
Andries: By saying that Jesus created the angels, you contradict verse 1-2, which says that “God” created “the world.” God created through His Son but it still was God who created. (Note, again, “God.”) I still find it odd that Hebrews tries to convince us that Jesus is better than the angels if He is God. It is not because he became human, because Jesus became “much better than the angels” when “He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (v3).
Mfon: Why does Hebrews 1 not just say that Jesus is God? Isaiah said it in Isaiah 9:6, did you believe it? John said it in John1:1, did you believe it? Thomas said it in John20:28, did you believe it? Luke recorded it in Acts20:28, did you believe it? The Father did testify of the Son in Heb1:8, praising the Son that “Thy throne O God is for ever and ever”. And in verse 10, the Father calls Him Lord (and there is only one LORD) and ascribes David’s prayer in Psalm102 to Christ.
Andries: I already explained Isaiah 9:6, John1:1 and John20:28. You read the “he” in Acts 20:28 to refer to “God.” In Revelation 5:9 we read, “You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe.” It would be more consistent with the message of the Bible to read the “he” in Acts 20:28 as referring to Jesus. Also, consider John’s summary of his gospel: “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (20:30). He did not ask us to believe that Jesus is God. Furthermore, at Pentecost, and therefore after Thomas said, “my lord and my god” (John20:28), Peter proclaimed Jesus as “a man attested to you by God with miracles” (Acts 2:22). Again, nothing about Jesus being God. It is inconsistent with the trend of the New Testament to read Thomas saying “my God.” You quote Heb. 1:8 and 1:10 but you omit verse 9 which says that God is Jesus’s God. Yes, Hebrews 1 has a very high Christology, but by saying that Jesus is equal to “God,” you ignore just too much evidence.
Mfon: In verse 8, Jesus is called “God,” but the very next verse says the Father is His God. How do you understand that? Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man. He is both God and Man, Same way He is Lamb and Shepherd, the same way He is Sin-offering and High Priest. As man, he gets tired, sleeps, eats, prays to God! The Father ascribes the prayer of the Psalmist in Psalm45:6 to Christ and then reminds us that Jesus is exalted as a Man.
Andries: I do not buy that. It is stated many times that the Father is Jesus’s God. For example, in the very same chapter you quoted Thomas, Jesus said, “I ascend to … My God and your God” (John 20:17). In Revelation, John referred to “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6).”
Mfon: In your other post, you made attempted to make a case that only the Father is called Almighty in the NT. Note that Revelation 1:5-20 is clearly referring to Christ including verse8 which where He calls Himself Almighty. He has taken the power He divested Himself of, and now had “all power in heaven and in earth”, just like the Father! Does Almighty not mean One that has ALL POWER? Is that not what both the Father and the Son have right now? Moreover, most of the references in the Old Testament of God Almighty appearing to Abraham, (Genesis17:1), Jacob (Gen35:11; 48:30), etc, was of the pre-incarnate Christ, No one has seen the Father, Jesus tells us very clearly. Jehovah is God Almighty (Exodus6:3) and if Jesus in His pre-incarnation appeared to people as Jehovah, evidently He is God Almighty, same as the Father.
Andries: There are two verses in Revelation that make an explicit distinction between Christ and “God the Almighty:” “His name is called The Word of God. … and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty” (19:13-15). AND “I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (21:22). This is the crux of the dispute between us. By saying that Jesus is God, you mean that He is Almighty. That is an explicit contradiction with the Bible.
Mfon: In another of your post, you seemed to say that because God created the Universe THROUGH Christ, the later played a subordinate role. But Romans11:36 states all things came THROUGH the Father! Does it mean the Father played a subordinate role because all things came “through” Him?
Andries: I am delighted in your knowledge of Scripture! No, when the Bible explains the roles which God and Jesus played in creation, it always says that God created THROUGH Christ. See 1 Cor. 8:6, Heb. 1, John 1, and Col. 1.
Mfon: When God said in Genesis “let us make man in our own image”, what image was this? Paul tells us man has 3 parts, spirit, soul and body. Same, God is three persons in One. You cannot see the spirit and soul of man but the body. Similarly, you cannot see the Father or Holy Ghost but the Son. No other creature was made this way except man and no other creature has three parts except man. The Father is the Soul, the Holy Ghost the Spirit and the Son the Body. That is why it is only the Son men have seen since Old Testament times. But your body is still you and not a lesser you!
Andries: I agree that God cannot be seen. Therefore, when people saw a person in the Old Testament, I agree is was Jesus. However, I think your paragraph contains too much speculation. I would not like to comment further.
Mfon: Let’s allow Scriptures to speak and not come to God’s Words with our biases!
Andries: At last something we agree about!
Mfon, I responded in your comment. Thank you for a high-quality comment and that you have read what I wrote.
Regards
Let’s put things easier this way. Lets assume Jesus aint God almighty, then He’s a junior inferior God.
But the bible says there is only ONE GOD. are you saying, within one Godhead, there’s a senior God and junior God?
Humans are created in triune image of God too. we are spirit soul and body. Spirit symbolises holy spirit, soul = father, body = jesus / flesh.
ok, i can accept that perhaps ,let say you are john, u may say your brain is more important than your eyes, but nonetheless is still you, John.
so Father God can be the brain , the Son is the eyes, if u wanna define that way that the brain is more important, more almighty than the son, i wouldnt argue …but nonetheless, its still you, John.
if you say your eyes aint John, then its wrong, its part of John ( God,example).
when we say worship God, it’s 3 Godhead altogether we worship.
We use the title “God” only for one Being – the Almighty and the Ultimate Reality. As such, only one God is possible. All things have been created through His only begotten Son. His Son is on the Creator side of the Creator/creation divide, but He is not the Ultimate Reality. That He has been begotten explains to us something which we cannot understand.
no need to complicate things. The Lord Your God is one ( old testament , YAHWEH) …The Lord = Jesus, Your God = Father , they are one. which one we dont understand? one…! One God divided into Father, Son and Spirit….
If the Son wasn’t God, how did he get to create ALL things we see in creation? Jesus is the son, yes, only lower in office or position to the Father. Why would Father consult Jesus when He said “Let us create humans in our image?” The father could have created it Himself if The son wasn’t God…
Next, love Your God with all thy heart, soul ……that includes Jesus too…Jesus is God, God the son…One God…
God created all things through His Son and still maintains all things through His Son (Heb 1:2-3; Col 1:16-17) but you have to respect the Bible when it consistently says that the one true God is the Father and consistently distinguishes between the Father and the Son. We are not allowed to replace explicit Bible Teaching with the traditions of the fathers.
There is a verse that God the Father is greater than Jesus
“You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'” (John 14:28).
Mark 16:9 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Best topic that I found above: Jesus is God or not God
I am a catechist in Tuticorin City. I put this question to my students. They gave three answers:
1) Many argue that, since Jesus did many MIRACLES, He is God.
2) They also say that when Jesus was baptised, the sky opened and there echoed a voice from heaven, “This is MY BELOVED, in whom I am well-pleased” (Mt. 3:17).
3) He died and was buried but he was resurrected.
I added:
4) He raised Lazarus who was dead and no man has done that before.
5) As Jesus himself said:
– “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, AND WE WILL COME to him and make OUR ABODE with him” (John 14:23).
– And, “ALL THINGS that the Father has are Mine” (John 16:15; cf. 17:10).
– Jesus prayed, “Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS” (John 17:5).
– “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working” (John 5:17).
– “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE” (John 10:30).
For a further discussion, see Jesus in Philippians and I and the Father are One.
I make my students ascertain their views with additional points 4, 5 which are detailed in the above topics. Thanks a lot.
Hi Emmanuel
It is difficult to keep the right balance.
That He did many miracles and even raised people to life does not prove that He is God, for Peter and many other of God’s people also raised people from death and did many similar miracles.
There are indications that He is NOT God:
It was God who spoke from heaven at Jesus’s baptism. Peter wrote, “when He received honor and glory from God the Father … ‘This is My beloved Son’” (2 Peter 1:17). If “God” spoke from heaven, then Jesus is distinct from God.
Jesus died, while “the only God” is “immortal” (1 Tim. 1:17).
There are indications that HE IS GOD, including the points you made under point 5. We must continue to seek the right balance.
You mention above: From that perspective my latest thought, after many months of intense study, is that Jesus is not the One called God in the New Testament, but He is the One called God in the Old Testament.
Is Jesus then the The LORD” (YHVH) in the Old Testament?
Martinus, thank you for the question. This is something that we cannot prove and will always remain an area of controversy. My point is that Jesus, before He became a human being, existed in the form of God and with equality to God (Phil 2:6) and that He received honor with God “before the world was” (John 17:5). If that is true, then He must have played a huge role in Old Testament times. He said, for example, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem … How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings” (Mt. 23:37).
In the Old Testament, we find YHVH appearing to Abraham (Gen 17), but we also know that “the only God” is “invisible” (1 Tim 1:17; cf. 6:16; John 1:18). And, not the LORD, but “the angel of the LORD … said, ‘I brought you up out of Egypt’” (Judges 2:1). .
My view is therefore that whenever YHVH (the LORD) appeared visibly in the Old Testament, that it actually was the pre-incarnate Jesus. The New Testament explains the Older Testament, and in my view, it explains that the YHVH of the Old Testament includes the Father and the Son. But I do not support the Trinity formulation of three Persons in One Being, or that the Son is equal to the Father. The New Testament reveals the Son as distinct from and subordinate to the Father.
Jesus was only subordinate to The Father when he was on earth, due to humanity.
One verse Hebrew 1:8 : But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.
Period, this one sentence finishes all the arguments about Jesus aint God. hahahha.
God the Father called the son God….period…JESUS is God and needs to be worshipped…
It is strange that you put a full stop behind Hebrews 1:8, for the next verse says that He has a God over Him.
But the Bible declares that the Son always was and always will be subordinate to the Father.
For example, 1 Corinthians 15 describes that future condition after sin and the consequences of sin have been fully removed, it is says that, in that future ideal state, after God’s people have been raised from death, and death itself and all of Satan’s forces have been destroyed (1 Cor 15:24), then Christ “hands over the kingdom to the God and Father” (1 Cor 15:24) and:
“The Son Himself also will be subjected
to the One who subjected all things to Him,
so that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).
The Son, therefore, will be subordinate to the Father for all eternity. Any possibility of the submission of the Son to the Father being a temporary or less than ideal state of affairs seems out of the question here.
O, dear! You begin with an error i.e. “Jesus always existed” ! and you compound that mistake as you vainly TRY to justify it!
Read Isaiah ch 45 v 18 ”For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; GOD HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I AM THE LORD THERE IS NONE ELSE.” (Also Isaiah ch 44 v.24) etc etc
Deut ch 6 v 4 :- ” Hear O Israel: The Lord our GOD is ONE Lord.”
IF Jesus existed from the beginning, then He HAD TO BE immortal, everlasting and divine. These are attributes that cannot be ended; they cannot be suspended -otherwise, they are NOT true.
Jesus was born of the “seed of David” 2 Sam ch 7, Jesus was BORN of Mary…NOT a “proxy” Mother… Jesus believed Mary was His MOTHER! John ch 19 vs 25-27
GODS CANNOT DIE !!!! (and eternity cannot be suspended..even for just 33 years !!)
Jesus was born at Bethlehem. There was NO incarnation…..Jesus did NOT pre-exist.
Rodd
Dear Rodd, the NT makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. Much of what you say makes sense, but you only present one side of the argument. For example, Jesus said that He is the first and the last. God gave Him to have life in Himself. God gave Him a name that we worship Jesus to the glory of God. He was before John and before Abraham. John, Paul, and Hebrews say that God created all things through Jesus. We must give Jesus the same honor as we give God. Etc. etc.
Given these things, it would be most surprising if Jesus was only a sinless anointed human being. You are wrong to focus only on the verses that say Jesus is a man. I recently discovered that the NT always says that we must have faith in Jesus; never in God. I think that is significant.
Let me give you another challenge: This creation always existed because time is part of the creation. There is no such thing as before the universe was created, for the word ‘before’ implies time. But that does not mean that the creation is God. Now extrapolate that to my statement that Jesus always existed.
Another thought; Jesus never sinned. How do you explain that if Mary was His natural mother?
The Catholic Church is holy and perfect, even though she is made of imperfect sinners. The Church proclaims the fulness of faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation..
Therefore; as a matter of fact, as the True Church Founded by Jesus Christ we must obey and believe what must be taught us by the Church, about the deity of God…
I understand, but Protestants are supposed to prove what they believe from the Bible. However, even in Protestantism one finds the same thing as in the Catholic Church, namely the belief that what the Church fathers taught is truth. I do not belong to any denomination, and I do not accept anything that contradicts the Bible. From that perspective my latest thought, after many months of intense study, is that Jesus is not the One called God in the New Testament, but He is the One called God in the Old Testament. Actually, the word “God,” as we use it today, does not appear in the Bible. (See my article theos.) Names are not important to me. I want to know who Jesus really is. Now there is a wonderful mystery.
the Bible is came out from Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church has given by God the authority to Interpret ..Mat.16:18-20..Mat.28:16-20….
Dear Leonardo, the institution, which we today know as the Catholic Church, did not exist when the church decided which books to include in the Bible. Perhaps you should say that the Bible came out from catholic (with a small “c”) Church. The word “catholic” simply means universal.
If we say that the church or Catholic Church must interpret the Bible for us, then we must also say that the Pharisees had to interpret the Old Testament for the Jews, and you know that they killed the Son of God. Are we to put our trust in fallible human beings?
Jesus Christ is the second Person of Holy Trinity..He is not subordinate from God because He is one of the Nature of Yahweh..”IAM”..
Jesus Is the Almighty God…”I AM”. ..Jesus said He is, HE was…and He Forever the Almighty Revelation1:7-8….
Dear Leonardo
Paul wrote, “God is the head of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:3) and “Christ is seated at the right hand of God” (Col. 3:1). Sixty years after His death and resurrection, Jesus referred to the Father as “My God” (e.g. Rev. 3:12). Perhaps my article, Given how the New Testament uses the title “God,” Jesus is not God can assist.
Apart from one, all instances of the word “Almighty” are in Revelation, and every time it refers to the Father, for example, “I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.” See my article Is Jesus the Almighty?
Jesus Christ is God.. 1John5:7…, 1John5:20, John8:58-59..believe it or not..but we the Catholic Church..believe it that Jesus is our Great God and Savior Titus2:13..
Dear Leonardo,
I like your very brief statements. Please forgive my longer response.
The word “God” does not appear in the Greek New Testament. The ancient Greek language only has words, such as theos, that are equivalent to our word “god.” Therefore, to translate Titus2:13 as “Great God,” with a capital “G,” rather than as “great god,” is AN APPLICATION OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE; not proof of it. Please see my article on Hebrews 1:8.
The KJV of 1John5:7 reads “there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” This does not appear in the newer translations because JOHN NEVER WROTE THESE WORDS. Some Trinitarian in centuries gone past thought that the Bible has too little support for the Trinity doctrine, and he added this phrase.
The “true God” in 1 John 5:20 is the Father, for He is the subject of the sentence and because “Him who is true” is twice identified as the Father in that verse, for His Son is Jesus Christ.
In John8:58-59 Jesus said “before Abraham was born, I am.” I think it is fairly clear that He thereby said that He existed before Abraham was born. I would also like to believe that Jesus thereby said that He is the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14. In my view, the Old Testament does not really distinguish between the Father and the Son. The Son existed in the form of God (Phil2:6). Whenever God was seen, in Old Testament times, it actually was the Son. But the New Testament does make that distinction and identifies the Father as the one who “alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see” (1Ti6:16).
I know that our brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church do not accept the Bible alone as the authority, but Protestants are supposed to. However, the sad reality is that most Protestants also base their support for the Trinity doctrine on the magisterium of the church father (the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church); rather than on the Bible.
Thank you for your comment, Andries
Thank you for clear detail about this difficult matter in Christianity. But it is clear already that God is distinct from Jesus because Jesus died and thereafter God raised him. God never died. Jesus also cried for help from God Mt 27:46