Posted on by Andries van Niekerk

In the Trinity doctrine, Jesus is God, but Jesus is not God.

INTRODUCTION

The Trinity Doctrine

In the traditional Trinity doctrine, God is one Being with one single mind (one rational capacity) but three co-equal and co-eternal Persons; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In this view, the Son of God is also the Ultimate Reality; the uncaused Cause.

However, since the three ‘Persons” share one single mind and will, scholars agree that the term “Person” is misleading. Perhaps “modes of existing as God” would better explain how the Trinity doctrine views the Father, Son, and Spirit.

Furthermore, since the Father and Son are a single Being, the Son cannot become incarnate and He cannot suffer or die. Therefore, at the Incarnation, the Holy Spirit inspired a normal human being (Jesus) with the Word of God. It was this normal human being who suffered, died, was resurrected, ascended, and now sits at God’s right hand. (Read more)

Show quotes from scholars

See here for a discussion of the ORIGIN of the Trinity doctrine in PDF format.

Purpose of this article

The Bible indeed has a very high view of Jesus. For example, through Him, God created and maintains all things (e.g., Heb 1:2-3). The Son, therefore, has ‘always’ existed. The Father gave Him to have “life in Himself” (John 5:26), “all judgment” (John 5:22), and “all authority … in heaven and on earth” (Mt 28:18). The Son is “He who searches the minds and hearts” (Rev 2:23). In other words, the Son shares God’s divine attributes.

However, this article shows:

Distinct from God – The Bible always distinguishes between God Almighty and Jesus Christ (e.g., Rev 21:22). For example, every one of Paul’s letters begins with phrases that make that distinction. For instance:

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father
and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 1:7).

Note this is not a mere distinction between the Father and the Son; it is a distinction between ‘God’ and the Son, meaning that the Son is not God.

A Distinct Mind – The Bible presents the Son as a distinct mind, as opposed to the single mind and will in the Trinity doctrine. For example, Jesus talks to His Father and prays to His Father. When He was scared before the crucifixion, He asked the Father to not let Him suffer, but, in the end, He said to His Father, ‘Let you will be done, not mine’.

Subordinate – The Bible also presents the Son as subordinate to His Father (e.g., 1 Cor 11:3). For example, even 60 years after His ascension, in the Book of Revelation, Jesus referred to His Father as His God (Rev 1:6; 3:2, 12).

We cannot understand God.

Understanding the relationship between God and His Son is probably impossible because we are trying to understand the infinite and the one Being who exists without a cause. That should scare us. Compared to the infinite God and His infinite creation, our world is like a one-cellular organism in a drop of water floating around in the oceans of the world; not knowing where it came from or where it is going. Compared to the Eternal, our existence is fleeting. How could we hope to understand the One who exists without cause?

However, we must not use our inability to understand God to justify unbiblical doctrines.

THE FATHER

Is the Only God.

The Bible is clear that only one God exists. This is stated in both:

      • The Old Testament (e.g., Deut 6:4; Is 44:6; 45:21-22; 43:10-11) and
      • The New Testament (e.g., James 2:19; cf. Mark 12:28-30; Gal 3:20);

In modern languages, the term “God” identifies one single Being; the Ultimate Reality; the One who exists without cause. That concept did not exist in the ancient Greek language and culture. They only had the word theos, which is equivalent to our word “god.” The basic meaning of the term theos is an immortal being with supernatural powers, and the Greek culture had many of those, such as Zeus, the god of the sky and thunder, and Hades, the god of the underworld. The New Testament, written in that same ancient Greek, had to use the same term theos. Therefore, to identify the one single ultimate Reality of Judaism and Christianity, the authors of the New Testament added words such as ‘the’ or ‘only’ to theos. For example:

    • The ‘only theos’, (Jude 1:25; 1 Tim 1:17),
    • The ‘one and only theos’ (John 5:44), and
    • The ‘one theos’ (1 Cor 8:6; 1 Tim 2:5; Eph 4:4-6);
    • The ‘only true theos’ (John 17:3).

The important point is that, in all such instances where the one theos is identified through the addition of further words, the one theos is the Father alone, in contrast to Jesus Christ, who is identified as “Lord.” For example:

“There is but one God, the Father …
and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 8:6).

Please take time to study the verses listed to make sure of this conclusion. Many texts in the Bible refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but these verses specifically define God and must, therefore, be regarded as critically important when we ask who God is.

Of course, once the disciples had realized that Jesus had been resurrected and was alive, they could refer to Him as theos as well. For example, after Thomas for the first time saw Jesus alive after His resurrection, said to Him: “my theos and my Lord.” (John 20:28) But the Father remains the only true theos; the only true god (John 17:3). 1To say that the Father is the ‘only true God’ is saying the same thing twice because, in modern culture, there is only one God. To retain the meaning of the ancient Greek, John 17:3 should be translated as referring to the Father as the “only true god.”

The translation of theos as ‘God’, when it describes Jesus, is based on the assumption that He is one with the Father and equal with the Father. Such translations, therefore, are applications of the Trinity doctrine and must not be taken as proof of the Trinity doctrine.

Alone exists without Cause.

The Bible identifies the Father alone as the uncaused Cause of all things. For example:

“There is but one God, the Father,
from whom are all things …
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
BY whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6). 

“All things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself through Christ”
(2 Cor 5:18-19; cf. Heb 1:1; John 1:3; Rev 4:11).

He is the ultimate Source of life:

“In the presence of God,
who gives life to all things,
and of Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 6:13).

Note that these verses identify God as the Father and contrast God with Christ. The Son, therefore, is not the Cause who exists without cause, as the Trinity doctrine claims. The words “through” and “by” in these verses indicate that God works “through” His Son. God always and in all things works through His Son.

Is alone Immortal.

The Father alone is immortal. For example:

“The King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” (1 Tim 1:17)

“The King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality … whom no man has seen or can see.” (1 Tim 6:16)

Only the Father exists without cause is, therefore, essentially immortal.
All other beings derive their immortality from that one Uncaused Cause. They are conditionally immortal. Since the Son was begotten by the Father, He exists because God exists.

THE SON

Is distinct from God

The New Testament maintains a consistent distinction between God and the Lord Jesus, which means that Jesus is not God. For example, all letters of the New Testament begin by making a distinction between God and Jesus, such as:

“Peace from God our Father,
and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 1:7-8).

“Grace be unto you … from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:3-4).

“Blessed be the God and Father
of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:3; cf. Gal 1:3, Eph 1:2, Phil 1:2, Col 1:2, Philemon 1:3, 1 Thess 1:1, James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:2; 2 John 1:3; and Eph 6:23).

Many, many other such passages may be quoted. For example, the book of Revelation contains phrases such as “to God and to the Lamb” and “of God and of the lamb” (Rev 14:4; 11:15; 21:22-23; 22:1, 3).

Trinitarian apologists may argue that this only makes the obvious distinction between the Father and the Son but that is not so. It is a distinction between God and the Son, meaning that the Son is not God in the ultimate sense.

Is a Distinct Rational Capacity.

In the traditional Trinity doctrine, Father, Son, and Spirit are one single rational capacity (literally one mind and will). The Bible, in contrast, depicts Father and Son as distinct rational capacities. For example:

Jesus often prayed to His Father.

Before He had to suffer and die on the Cross, Jesus pleaded with His Father, “If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me;
yet NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL.” (Matt 26:39)

Is the visible Image of God.

God is invisible.

God “dwells in unapproachable light,
whom no man has seen or can see”
(1 Tim 6:16-17).

“No one has seen God at any time”
(1 John 4:12; cf. John 1:18; John 6:46; Col 1:15; John 4:24).

God is invisible because He exists outside our physical realm of time, space, and matter. Nevertheless, that Invisible God is the Source of all things (Heb 11:3).

Jesus is His visible image.

Jesus “is the (visible) image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15). “He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His (God’s) nature” (Heb 1:1, 3; cf. 2 Cor 4:4).

God is invisible, unknowable, and incomprehensible. Human beings are unable to comprehend a Being that is not limited in space or time and Who exists without cause. But in His Son, appearing in a form that we can understand, God becomes knowable, visible, and audible to the material creatures of the universe.

If God is invisible, while Jesus is His visible image, then Jesus is distinct from God and, therefore, not God.

Is at God’s Right Hand.

The New Testament often mentions that Jesus, at His ascension, “was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God” (Mark 16:19). Stephen, just before he was stoned, said, “I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God” (Acts 7:56; cf. Mt 26:62; Acts 2:33; 7:55; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20.)

His position at God’s right hand is the position of power over the entire universe but still subject to God. That confirms that Jesus is both DISTINCT from God and SUBORDINATE to God.

Considers the Father as His God.

Jesus referred to the Father as His God. For example:

“I ascend to My Father and to your Father,
to My God and to your God” (John 20:17; cf. Matt 27:46).

Even 60 years after His resurrection, when Christ gave to John the Book of Revelation, He identified the Father as His God (Rev 3:2, 12; cf. 1:6). Paul also described the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:17; cf. Heb 1:8-9).

Since God is also His God, Jesus prayed to God while on earth (John 17:1; Luke 6:16; Heb 5:7). The entire John 17 is a record of Jesus’ prayer to “the only true God” (John 17:1, 3). “He spent the whole night in prayer to God” (Luke 6:16).

POSSIBLE OBJECTIONS

Various articles are available on this website that address possible objections to the view that Jesus is not God.

Jesus is called God.

Of the about 1300 times that the word Greek theos appears in the New Testament, it refers to Jesus about 7 times. So why is Jesus called “God” in those instances?

Firstly, as discussed above, the word theos does not mean ‘God’. The modern concept ‘God’ refers to the one Ultimate Reality. There was no word in the ancient Greek exactly equivalent to ‘God’.

When the Bible uses the word theos for the Father, it is appropriately translated as “God” because the Father is the Ultimate Reality.

When theos describes Jesus, since He is not the Ultimate Reality, it may perhaps be translated as “divine.” To translate such instances of theos as “God” is an application of the Trinity doctrine; not proof there-of. (For a further discussion, see, for example, the article on Hebrews 1:8 or on the word theos.) 

I and the Father are one.

In John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Trinitarians interpret this verse as that Jesus and the Father are literally one and the same Being. However, to be “one” does not mean to be literally one Person. Jesus, in His prayer for His followers, defined the term to “be one”:

“That they may be one as we are one“ (John 17:21-23).

To “be one,” therefore, means to be united in purpose and will. It describes a relationship between distinct beings. For example, Jesus said that He did the works of the Father (John 10:32) and He only did what pleased the Father (John 8:28-29). See – I and the Father are one.”

He who has seen me has seen the Father.

When Philip said to Jesus, “Lord, show us the Father,” Jesus responded:

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:8-9)

Trinitarians also use this statement to argue that Jesus and the Father are one single Being. However, given the verses quoted above, we should rather conclude that Jesus said here that He is THE EXACT IMAGE of the Father. For a further discussion, see – Seen the Father. 

John 1

Both John 1:1 and 1:18 refer to Jesus as God. However, these same two verses also make a distinction between God and Jesus by saying:

    • “The Word was with God” (John 1:1) and
    • “No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18). 

Why is He called God if He is distinct from God? As already stated, translators ASSUME that Jesus is the Almighty and, based on that assumption, they translate theos here as “God.” But theos, ar argued, when referring to Jesus, should preferably translated as “divine.”

Furthermore, the article series on John 1:1 concludes that this verse uses theos in a qualitative sense which requires John 1:1c to be translated as:

‘The Word was like God.’

John 1:1 then has the same meaning as Philippians 2:5, which says that Jesus, before His birth, “existed in the form of God” and had equality with God.

The article on John 1:18 shows further that the original text of that verse is disputed. Many ancient manuscripts refer to Jesus as huios (son) and not as theos (god). But even if John originally did describe Jesus as theos, it remains up to the translator to decide whether to translate theos as ‘God’, ‘god’, or ‘divine’.

WHO IS JESUS?

Given how the Bible describes Jesus, for example, that God created all things through Him and that Jesus upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb 1:2-3), finite minds find it difficult to distinguish between God and Jesus. But consider the following thoughts:

Since things exist, and not nothing, something must exist without a cause and, therefore, without a beginning.

Since everything that BEGINS to exist must have a cause, and since our universe had a beginning, our universe was caused by something.

Since the energy and intelligence that formed our universe came from outside our universe, the true but completely incomprehensible Infinity which is the true reality, exists beyond the time, space, and mass of our universe.

Since God created “all things” through Him (e.g., Heb 1:2), the Son has always existed. However, since time is limited to our universe, to say that the Son ‘always’ existed describes the Son only in terms of our little universe. How the Son relates to the incomprehensible Reality beyond our universe is beyond human understanding.

When we say that God created “all things” through the Son, that refers only to our universe. For example, “all things” do not include God or the Son Himself.

So, the Son is the alfa and omega of our existence, but of what exists beyond our universe, namely, the true Reality, we can say about nothing. “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us” (Deut 29:29).

ORIGIN OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

A series of articles on this website discusses the origin of the Trinity doctrine. In particular, they show that the decision to adopt the Trinity doctrine was not taken by independent Church Councils, but by the Roman Emperors:

During the first three centuries, while Christianity still was persecuted by the Roman authorities, church fathers such as Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus described Jesus as theos but always as subordinate to the Father, who they identified as the only true and almighty theos (e.g., Origen).

In the fourth century, after the Roman emperors legalized Christianity, they became the de facto head of the church and the final arbiter in doctrinal disputes:

“If we ask the question, what was considered to constitute the ultimate authority in doctrine during the period reviewed in these pages, there can be only one answer. The will of the Emperor was the final authority” (RH, 849). 2Hanson RPC, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God: The Arian Controversy, 318-381. 1988

Different emperors had different views, but the emperor’s preference always determined the doctrine of the church. For example, very briefly:

Emperor Constantine forced the Nicene Council in AD 325 to include the term homoousios (same substance) in the Creed. Constantine, however, later accept an anti-Nicene view, and recalled the exiled anti-Nicenes.

His successor Constantius and his successor Valens preferred one of the anti-Nicene views (Homoianism) and ensured the dominance of Homoianism in the church.

When Theodosius became emperor, Homoianism dominated but he was convinced of the Trinity doctrine and did something which no emperor has done before him: Through the edict of Thessalonica in AD 380, he made Trinitarian Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire and outlawed all other forms of Christianity. Through severe persecution, he eradicated non-Trinitarian Christianity from within the Roman Empire.

One can say that the Arian Controversy began when persecution ceased and the Controversy ended when persecution resumed.

During the fifth century, Germanic tribes, who previously migrated into the Empire, reached such large numbers and such high positions in the Roman army that they, in reality, controlled the Western Roman Empire. They divided the territory of the Western Empire into Germanic kingdoms. Since these Germanic peoples became Christian in the fourth century while ‘Arianism’ still dominated the church, the Western Empire was ‘Arian’ once again! In the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire), with Constantinople as its capital, Nicene Christianity remained dominant.

In the sixth century, Emperor Justinian, emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire purposed to free the Roman Church in the west from Arian domination. He sent troops and significantly weakened the Arian nations. He dispersed the Vandals to the fringes of the empire, forced the Ostrogoths back north to South Austria, and barricaded the Visigoths with the new province of Spania.

Some Arian nations remained, but after Justinian had liberated the Roman Church from Arian domination, the Byzantine Empire continued to protect, strengthen, and reign over the west through the Roman Church. Two centuries of Byzantine rule over the Papacy (known as the Byzantine Papacy) converted the remaining Arian kingdoms, one after the other, to Trinitarian Christianity.

The Roman Church that subsequently became the church of the Middle Ages was the continuation of the Trinitarian state religion or Church of the Roman Empire. As stated in Revelation 13:2, the dragon (the Roman Empire), gave the beast from the sea (the Church of the Middle Ages) “his power and his throne and great authority.” Through her control over civil authorities, she put people to death who opposed her teachings.

It is impossible to deny the decisive influence of emperors on the church’s acceptance of the Trinity doctrine.

THE END-TIME PERSECUTION

All Christians agree that the doctrine of God is the most important doctrine of the church. Therefore, for the mainstream church, the Trinity doctrine is the most important doctrine and the identifying mark of true Christianity. People who reject it are regarded and treated as outsiders and heretics. During the Middle Ages, such people were even killed.

Opposition to the Trinity doctrine has been subdued by various means, including by important sounding but vague terms making it very difficult to understand what the issues are.

But the opposition to the Trinity doctrine has not been fully exterminated. The Trinity doctrine distorts the Bible and, in the end-time, the truth of the Bible will be revealed and the first great controversy in the church will again erupt to become the last Great Controversy.

OTHER ARTICLES

FOOTNOTES

56 Replies to “In the Trinity doctrine, Jesus is God, but Jesus is not God.”

    1. We do not understand why or where or how we exist. Our earth is like a speck of dust in this galaxy and the galaxy is like a drop of water floating in the oceans of the world. Each of us lives for about 70 years but this universe has existed for about 13000000000 years, the scientists say. For these reasons, it is impossible to understand. I think it is ridiculous that some clever people claim that God does not exist. For me, the miracles of nature and the miracles which I think I found in the Bible are adequate proof – not only that God exists but also that He is a kind and loving Person.

      But who is God? How can we explain that? His thoughts are as high above ours as the stars are above the earth. My best explanation is as follows: All things have a cause but there must be something that exists without cause, otherwise nothing would exist. So, in my view, God is that which exists without cause.

      But if He is that, then He also is that which exists, meaning that everything that exists came forth from His being. In other words, our universe exists somewhere within God; God does not exist somewhere in the universe.

      All of that is pretty impossible to understand. The infinity scares me. Our existence is completely dependent on the First Cause. Therefore I cling to the statement in the Bible that Jesus is the image of God. It makes me very glad to think that God is like Jesus.

      Reply

  2. The Trinity
    The trinity teaches that God asked himself to go to earth to save mankind.
    Then he agreed with himself and volunteered himself to himself to offer himself.
    Then God impregnated a woman as himself, with himself.
    God prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly.
    God strengthened himself and talked to himself.
    Finally God forsook himself and sacrificed himself to prove his loyalty to himself.
    While dead, he resurrected himself so he could exalt himself above himself.
    Then he sat at his own right hand and waited till he placed his enemies as a footstool.
    Finally, with Satan’s forces defeated, Jesus would turn his kingdom over to himself that all things would become everything to himself.

    Reply

    1. Hi Gavin, that is not entirely correct. Your comment assumes that the Trinity doctrine teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one PERSON. That is not true. It teaches that they are three PERSONS but one SUBSTANCE. There are various forms of the Trinity doctrine. The traditional (catholic) doctrine is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have ONE MIND and WILL but there are also many people who believe that they have THREE different MINDS and WILLS. If you are interested in a detailed discussion, I would recommend Dr. Tuggy’s TRINITIES podcast. I believe his Christology is off, but the quality of his podcasts is good.

      Reply

  3. John 5:23 – this verse is especially clear in stating that one should “honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” If we honor the Father as God, then the Son should be “just as” honored.

    John 8:56-58 – did Jesus commit blasphemy here, calling Himself “I AM”, a name reserved only for the YHWH Father God? (see Exodus 3:14)

    John 20:28 – if Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus not swiftly correct Thomas when he uttered these words? Furthermore, this is clearly an act of worship on Thomas’ part. If Jesus is only a servant only of God, then why didn’t Jesus correct Thomas the same way as the angel corrected John in Revelation 22:9?

    The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as God was one of the major stumbling blocks which prevented the Jews from fully receiving Christ (see Luke 5:21, John 5:18, John 10:33, John 8:59).

    I think you also missed the fact that the Trinity doctrine/modalism (as explained in GotQuestions) embraces the Biblical truth that there absolutely is subordination within the Trinity. This does not take away from Jesus’ status as God but simply reinforces the fact that there is divine mystery found in the relationship among the Three Members; mystery that we cannot yet comprehend.

    Love and Blessings to you in Christ.

    Reply

    1. My question is ” Why do we want or need mysteries and why would God give us mysteries in such important matters and what evidence is there that God gave us a mystery “.

      Reply

  4. If Jesus is not God, then how does one explain the following verses:

    Isaiah 9:6-7 – did the prophet Isaiah get it wrong when he intimated that the Father YAHWEH and Son are One, stating that the Son is “Mighty God” even going so far as to call the Son as “Everlasting Father”?

    Zechariah 12:10 – it is clear that in this whole chapter the LORD YAHWEH God is talking here. Why then does He say “they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son” ? In this one verse alone, the LORD Father refers to the Son as both “Me” and “Him”, thus clearly indicating that as much as they are One, they are different Divine Persons.

    Luke 5:20-21 – I think we can all agree that only YAHWEH God can forgive sins. So was Jesus committing blasphemy in this verse, like so many catholic priests do today?

    Reply

    1. WITH RESPECT TO ISAIAH 9:6

      Firstly, those verses do not say that the Father YAHWEH and Son are One. Those verses talk ONLY about the Son.

      Secondly, it does not say that the Son is “Mighty God.” It says that the Son is “mighty god.” The ancient languages did not have a word equivalent to the modern word “God.” Ancient documents and the Bible were written ONLY IN CAPITAL LETTERS. The only word that the ancients had was equivalent to the modern word “god.” In these ancient languages, the title “god” refers to an immortal being with supernatural powers. It would include the angels. In ancient thought, there were many “gods.” For example, the ancient Greek gods. Therefore, Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Son as “mighty god.”

      In contrast, the title “God” is a modern invention. It functions like a name for ONE specific Being, namely The Ultimate Reality; the One who exists without cause. To translate Isaiah 9:6 as “Mighty God” is an interpretation. It is based on the ASSUMPTION that the Son is the Most High. It is not proof there-of. For a further discussion, see – The Meanings of the Word THEOS.

      Thirdly, Isaiah 9:6 does refer to the Son as “everlasting father,” but to read this as referring to the One whom Jesus in the New Testament called His Father is firstly an anachronism and secondly modalism. (Modalism is where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are regarded as ONE PERSON. I think we should agree that the New Testament presents the Father and Son as distinct persons.) So, what Isaish 9:6 is saying is that the Son would be like a father to us.

      WITH RESPECT TO ZECHARIAH 12:10

      There were two distinct divine Beings in Zechariah’s visions, namely the LORD of hosts and the Angel of the LORD (Zech 1:11). The Angel of the LORD is also called YHVH (translated as “the LORD”) (Zech 3:2), acts as Judge, and forgives Joshua his sins (Zech 3:1-3). In other words, the Angel of the LORD seems to be God. Zechariah 12 also seems to equate “the angel of the LORD” with “God” (Zech 12:8).

      However, He asks the LORD of hosts for a decision about Jerusalem (Zech 1:12) and conveys a message from the LORD to Joshua (Zech 3:6-7). These things, as well as His title, “Angel of the LORD,” which means messenger of the LORD, imply that He is SUBORDINATE to the LORD of hosts, just like, in the New Testament, the Son is subordinate to the Father (e.g., 1 Cor 11:3; Rev 1:6; 3:12).

      So, which YHVH is talking in Zechariah 12:10? Since the angel of the LORD always seems to be the Messenger, could that be Him talking? For a further discussion, see – If He always existed, where do we find Jesus in the Old Testament?

      WITH RESPECT TO LUKE 5:20-21 – FORGIVING SINS

      In these verses, Jesus forgives the sins of a man. We already saw that the Angel of the LORD forgave Joshua his sins (Zech 3:5). The Son is the Judge and, therefore, He is the One who forgives sins BECAUSE “not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22). But note that, since He received “all judgment” from the Father, that this confirms that the Son is subordinate to His Father.

      Reply

  5. If Jesus is not God, then how does one explain the following verses:

    John 1:1, John 10:30 – these speak for themselves

    John 5:23 – this verse is especially clear in stating that one should “honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” If we honor the Father as God, then the Son should be “just as” honored.

    John 8:56-58 – did Jesus commit blasphemy here, calling Himself “I AM”, a name reserved only for the YHWH Father God? (see Exodus 3:14)

    John 20:28 – if Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus not swiftly correct Thomas when he uttered these words? Furthermore, this is clearly an act of worship on Thomas’ part. If Jesus is only a servant only of God, then why didn’t Jesus correct Thomas the same way as the angel corrected John in Revelation 22:9?

    The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as God was one of the major stumbling blocks which prevented the Jews from fully receiving Christ (see Luke 5:21, John 5:18, John 10:33, John 8:59).

    I think you also missed the fact that the Trinity doctrine (as explained in GotQuestions) embraces the Biblical truth that there absolutely is subordination within the Trinity. This does not take away from Jesus’ status as God but simply reinforces the fact that there is divine mystery found in the relationship among the Three Members; mystery that we cannot yet comprehend.

    Love and Blessings to you in Christ.

    Reply

    1. JOHN 1:1 – THE WORD WAS GOD

      I feel very passionate about this verse because I regard this translation as blatant dishonesty. Do some research and you will see that it is common knowledge that this phrase is a very specific grammatical Greek construct that uses the word theos in a qualitative sense (i.e., the word is like God). Despite this, translators continue to translate theos here in a definite form (i.e., the word is God.). Since it uses theos qualitatively, John 1:1c is similar to Colossians 1:15, which says that “He is the image of the invisible God.” I have a series of articles on John 1:1.

      JOHN 10:30 – I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE

      This must not be interpreted literally. For example, Jesus prayed for His disciples, saying to His Father, “that they may be one, just as We are one” (John 17:22). See – Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Does that mean that Jesus is God?

      JOHN 5:23

      Yes, we must “honor the Son just as they honor the Father” but that does not mean that they are equal, for the Father gave the Son a name that is about all other names so that all should worship Him “to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:9-11). See – Does Philippians 2 say that Jesus emptied Himself of equality with God?

      JOHN 8:56-58 – I AM

      Jesus called Himself “I AM” (cf. Exodus 3:14) because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Remember, the Almighty (a title the Bible uses ONLY for Most High – cf. Rev 21:22) is not part of this universe. On the contrary, He is the Source of creation. Therefore, just like Jesus was visibly on earth while His Father was invisibly in “heaven,” the Son is the One visibly representing the Almighty everywhere in creation. Therefore, I hold, everywhere we read about God appearing visibly in the Old Testament, it really was the one we call Jesus Christ.

      JOHN 20:28 – MY LORD AN MY GOD

      For the three years or more before John 20:28, Jesus never taught His disciples that He is God (cf. John 10:36). Neither did the disciples, after Thomas said this, teach that Jesus is God. Therefore, Thomas could not have said that Jesus is God. Consequently, there was no need for Jesus to correct Thomas. In my article on John 20:28, I discuss various possible meanings of Thomas’ words.

      PREVENTED THE JEWS

      You wrote:

        The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as God was one of the major stumbling blocks which prevented the Jews from fully receiving Christ (see Luke 5:21, John 5:18, John 10:33, John 8:59).

      No. The Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Christ; the Son of God (Matt 26:63, 68; Luke 22:67-71).

      TRINITY DOCTRINE

      You also wrote:

        I think you also missed the fact that the Trinity doctrine (as explained in GotQuestions) embraces the Biblical truth that there absolutely is subordination within the Trinity. This does not take away from Jesus’ status as God but simply reinforces the fact that there is divine mystery found in the relationship among the Three Members; mystery that we cannot yet comprehend.

      We need to distinguish between:
      • Functional subordination – the theory that the members of the Godhead voluntary subordinate themselves one to another, but are equal in being, and
      • Subordation in being – the view that the Son is inherently subordinate to the Father; also called ontological subordination.

      GotQuestions accepts functional subordination but not subordation in being. In my view, the Son, as the only begotten Son of God (cf. Nicene Creed) is subordinate to the Father in His very being and, therefore, also functionally subordinate to Him.

      But I like your statement that the trinity is a mystery very much. I’d prefer that we just repeat what the New Testament says and not be dogmatic about things we cannot understand.

      Thank you for the kind tone of your comment. So often people find it necessary to insult me personally regarding my views on the trinity.

      Reply

      1. Thank you for taking the time to reply to the points I raised. Although we disagree, I do recognize your sincerity in this website to prevent people from being deceived by the spirit of the antichrist in these last days that we are now in. Love and Blessings to you in Christ Jesus our LORD and Savior.

        Reply

    2. great points don…and we can add a further one that is even more significant…How does one explain Jesus sitting in the midst of the throne in Revelation 7:17? In fact, if we read Revelation 17:15-17 it is very clear that Jesus and God are one and the same. If they are not a triune Godhead, then Jesus by Himself is God here. How is that even possible…is not the Father God? Does not God, according the Isaiah NOT delegate his power to anyone else? This is one of the huge flaws in Arian doctrine…If God is all powerful and does not delegate to anyone else, “I am God, there is no one else (Isaiah 45)”, then how could we possibly reconcile Jesus sitting in the midst of the throne in Revelation 7?

      Reply

      1. Jesus is “in the center of the throne” (Rev 7:17) because, as He said, “I also overcame
        and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev 3:21). Similarly, “her child was caught up to God and to His throne” (Rev 12:5). A very important principle is that Revelation maintains a constant distinction between God and Jesus. For example, “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1, 3) will be in the New Jerusalem. There are, therefore, two Persons on the throne. Since one is identified as God, the other is not God. Stephen similarly said, “I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God” (Acts 7:56). For a further discussion, see my article on the Christology of the Book of Revelation.

        Something else, you often refer to the “Arian” doctrine. Actually, there is no one “Arian” doctrine. The views range from a mere man Christology, namely that Jesus did not exist before His birth from Mary, to the view that the Son always existed and that God created all things through Him, but that He always was subordinate to the Most High. But Trinitarians like to cluster all such views under the title Arianism.

        And are you also aware that what you call Arianism dominated the church during the first four centuries? This only changed in the year 380, when the Roman Emperor Theodosius made the Trinity doctrine the only legal religion in the Roman Empire, and ruthlessly destroyed all traces of the different non-Trinitarian views that dominated until that time.

        Reply

  6. Dear Andries

    Thank you for the incredible and accurate research you have put into all your work. I agree with all you have said as it comes directly from scripture.

    I have realized some time ago that one of the biggest reasons for the “great misleading” comes through the pen of the translator. One would be naïve to think that the powers and principalities of this dark world have not a hand in this. How else would it be possible to establish the antichrist? False doctrine and teaching through corrupted translations.

    I love Jesus with my whole heart and I am thankful that He came to teach us about his Father’s love for us all. Everything that the Bible teaches about Jesus is true. Jesus even tells us who He is and why his Father sent him to us.

    I believe that GOD, the Son of GOD and the Spirit of GOD work and function as a unit. But there is only one GOD, the Father and his name is YHWH.

    There is a movement that started recently and I can sense an urgency in it… RETURN TO THE FATHER. Your research on the Sabbath is also accurate and we will see the importance of the Sabbath when the final prophesies are fulfilled. The mark of the beast VS. The mark of GOD.

    I pray that our GOD and Father will continue to lead you through his Spirit into truth. I pray this in the wonderful name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

    Reply

    1. Thanks, De Vries
      In the view of some, the Sabbath is the “mark” or “seal” of God. But even if that is true, one should not assume that the Mark of the Beast is the alternative, namely Sunday worship. Rather, we should ask what the beast is, and then, to identify its mark, I would propose that we ask what the distinctive feature of the beast is. One of my articles argue that the beast is the mainstream church of Christianity. So, what would its distinctive feature be?

      Reply

      1. Dear Andries

        Could you also just clarify the following please?

        “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23

        I don’t recall reading about this verse.

        Best regards.

        De Vries

        Reply

        1. Hi De Vries
          Immanuel was the name of a literal boy in the Old Testament (Isa 7:14, 16). That boy was not God. Similarly, the fact that Jesus is called Immanuel does not mean that He Himself is the Most High.

          Philip asked to see the Father. Jesus responded, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:8-9). That is how I understand the application of the name Immanuel to Jesus. It does not mean that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15). When He is with us, it is as if God is with us.

          Reply

      2. excellent response regarding the Mark of the Beast Andries. I think that whilst it could be seen as failure to keep the Sabbath…in an of itself, i believe the doctrine is a far reaching issue. The mark of the beast i believe comes from those who do not exercise the patience of the saints…ie those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. Clearly the Sabbath would be one of those commandments, however, if we consider the story of the Good Samaritan, the testimony of Jesus should also be included. We are to also love our neighbour as ourselves.

        Reply

    1. If it was true what some people (churches) say about them, such as that God will torture sinners for all eternity, or that God is angry at sinners and that Jesus had to die to placate Him, I would agree with you. But the purpose of this website is to prove that God is not like people say He is. He gave His only unique Son to save the human race. If Jesus failed, not only would the human race have been lost, but the Son would have suffered some loss which we cannot understand. Satan said that, given the right circumstances, even the Son would give in to the lure of sin. Jesus became man so that He could be tested. Despite all the temptations that Satan threw at Him, He never set Him own needs above that of others. Therefore, we can be assured, God and Jesus have always been and will always be completely unselfish.

      Reply

      1. I think you should also remember, Jesus “the man” was the person who died for our sins. He was the incarnate God. Only God can forgive sins, and as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, only a perfect being (a God) is capable of paying the price for sin. Jesus the mere man, an imperfect being couldnt forgive or pay the price for anything.
        That is why Jesus must be a coequal God. God doesnt delegate his power an authority to anyone (Isaiah)…and this is the fundamental reason why Arianism is a deeply flawed doctrine.

        Reply

        1. I do not think so. the Father has given all judgment to the Son (John 5:22). Therefore Jesus most certainly can forgive sins.

          Furthermore, you use one specific atonement theory to justify your view that Jesus is God. You say Jesus paid a price. To whom? Do you regard God as angry? I hold to a different atonement theory according to which the Son must NOT be God.

          You say that “God doesn’t delegate his power an authority to anyone” but Jesus said “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Matt 28:18).

          Reply

  8. It is sad to see this post and so many people commenting wrongly about God. I suggest reading online “Understanding the Trinity: How can God be three Persons in One?” by Matt Perman and/or “Trinity” by got questions. The trinity is foundation to our faith and salvation. Learn it, search it, pray, read, understand. God bless. Jesus is God.

    Reply

    1. Thanks for the comment. I scanned Matt Perman’s short article. It is a conversion of the Athanasian Creed into more normal language. But the question is not How can God be three Persons in One, the question is what does the Bible say? Does the Bible say that Jesus is God? John summarized his gospel with these words, “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31). He did not say, “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is God.”

      Reply

  9. I was a born again christian, but after reading Dr. Richard Carrier’s arguments, I became convinced there was no real flesh and blood Jesus.

    Reply

    1. Hi Tomas
      The Thomas of the Bible also said, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe” (John 20:25).

      One thing that worries me about your view is the statement “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 1:7)

      Reply

  10. Through all the discussion above. At the end of the day people will choose their belief based on their understanding using a human brain.

    When we pray to the lord / our God … do we use our brain only, or our heart? Doesn’t our heart cry out to God not our limited intellect ?

    So the discussion of right and wrong ways to see Lord Jesus , and then telling our fellow brothers and sisters that they are in danger of preaching one way or another about who Jesus is and if wrong will be judged ….mmmmm…. I don’t know seems a little off the mark of why we are Christians.

    On the one hand yes we want to share who Jesus is to people to show them the path of Jesus….. so it stands to serve we do want to know who Jesus is himself…..

    But Jesus own saying if Love the lord your God with all your being…. Should we not maybe focus on teaching what Jesus said… and then helping people find faith in what Jesus said and faith in God , trinity or not … our faith runs deeper than wondering about trinity or not…..

    Again I return to the heart, we call out to God and wether we say Lord Jesus through you I pray to God… or do as Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer: “our father who arrived in heaven…

    Both ways are one and the same , no need to be divided …. I doubt God would worry about you praying through Lord Jesus to God or ? Only to God…. Our father in heaven.

    So ultimately what I want to say is … it’s a endless debate that will confuse many people and get them looking at a path rather than at the destination … getting stuck in mud on a path to glory is counter productive.

    Teach people to do what Jesus said , Jesus said Father in heaven…pray and teach others to pray… so that the Holy Spirit will guide our hearts and not our human intellect which is limited.

    Just my view point I wanted to share . Knowledge has limits , but spirit moving us as did the apostles receiving the Holy Spirit know God without words……

    Perhaps the key is such … anything that starts a debate is actually human and thinking…. Which is not bad at all but is not as powerful as spirit moving us that goes beyond thinking into our core …

    Reply

    1. Hi Richard
      Yes. I have thought much about what the difference is. And the difference, in my mind is very important. Let me say it like this: Satan saw in the nature of Christ an ideal opportunity to create division in the church. The division got teeth in the fourth century when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and the first Christians were killed for preaching contrary to the Trinity doctrine. See Boyd. Over the centuries, many more Christians were killed for not accepting the Trinity doctrine, even by Protestants. See Michael Servetus. Now, I think we are approaching the end-time, and people will again be killed for their faith. We need to know what the truth is.

      Reply

  11. As we go on to debate such matters, the unity of most starts to fall apart. That is the very reason why there are so many denominations. In the beginning there was only one religion, one language and God dwelling with His people. It is no wonder that Hosea 4:6 declares that my people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge. It also goes further to say that because they have rejected the truth.

    Everyone seems to say that they hold the truth, but somewhere among all those with different views the truth stands. But because of religion some are blinded and cannot see the truth. I want us to slow down and think carefully and pray fully on what Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 when Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven”. And in Luke 13:24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

    When translations are done from the Hebrew words, one must carefully bring it into context, otherwise one can choose a word that suits and then get it wrong. Paul states “For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ”. Then we look at scripture 1 Tim 3 16 that God was made manifest. Now manifest translation indicates the following…to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way.

    As we note to make visible, and God is invisible and was made visible to man as seen in 1Tim 3:16. Jesus also says to the Jews in John 8:58, “Truly, truly I say to you, that before Abraham was born, I Am. Now the only one declaring to be I Am was God when He said to Moses in Exodus 3:14, “I Am who I Am”.
    Jesus says in John 8:58 before Abraham was born, I Am. What a statement from Jesus to make when he says I Am. We then only can conclude from all this and other scriptures that Jesus is was God in the flesh.

    I pray that we seek God in all matters and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth before the word of God is distorted.

    Reply

    1. Dear Derrick,

      I appreciate your caution. I do believe that clear thinking is critical with respect to the Trinity doctrine, which is regarded by many as the cornerstone of Christianity and which forms the basis of many other doctrines of the church, such as the doctrine of the atonement.

      I use the NASB. In the NASB, 1 Timothy 3 16 does not say anything about “God was made manifest.” The NASB reads, “great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh.” Perhaps this is a less clear verse.

      I do believe that, in John 8:58, Christ claimed to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14. God created all things through Him (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2). Before He became a human being, “He existed in the form of God” and had “equality with God” (Phil 2:6), but those quotes still mean that He is distinct from God. God is invisible (Col 1:15) because He exists outside time, space and matter. I believe that the One who appeared visibly as God in the Old Testament is the Son.

      There are many texts that ascribe divine qualities to the Son. But the Bible is also clear that He is distinct from and subordinate to Him. My caution is this: Do not select a key verse, such as John 8:58, and ignore the vast number of verses that do not fit the Trinity doctrine.

      I do understand that this is difficult. Infinity is beyond human understanding. But allow me to say how I try to make sense of the fact that the Bible describes the Son both as divine and as distinct and subordinate to God: Scientists know much more today than they knew when the Bible was written. Today we learn that this universe came into being 13 billion years ago through the Big Bang. But the source of intelligence and power, that caused the universe to come into existence, exists outside space, time, and matter. In my mind, I associate Christ with this universe and God with than invisible but true reality beyond this universe. But that is not Bible exegesis; this is just I make sense of the Bible facts.

      Reply

  12. Brethren, let us not confuse ourselves with the Trinity of God. The Bible is very clear on God`s plan of redemption. Note God is Spirit who can possess any form, any character. His appearances to humans depend on His purpose. At times He appeared as a fire…..Story of the burning bush, As spirit…Day of Pentecost, or as a friend and Human {Jesus Christ). So when Jesus prayed to the Father, this does not mean he was not God. But it was a demonstration to humanity that only one in Heaven is worthy to receive worship.

    1 Timothy 3 v 11 – 16…God appeared to his earth as a human. Seen by angels.
    Therefore, his purpose was to save his people from sin. After His resurrection, Thomas began to know him completely that he is the true God.
    ……For all the time along, he took him as Lord and not God….but when he touched Jesus’ hands, he fell down and cried…My Lord and My God. If Jesus was not true God he could have rebuked this word…My God

    Again remember the devil said, worship me and if you do all this kingdom of the world will be given to you…Jesus said…Get away from me Satan: Worship the Lord your God and immediately Satan knew that he was speaking to God himself in Flesh.

    Therefore Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Meaning the body of Jesus represents God’s love for humankind and the Spirit of God in Jesus represents his love for heavenly beings. Jesus took all forms of God. This God who speaks as a word during creation, appeared as blazing fire is now fully live as a human but his Spirit is everywhere present

    Thank you

    Reply

    1. Dear Pardon

      I appreciate your views, but if we want to represent God on this earth, we must seek the truth even if that goes against what the mighty men of this world preach. We must seek the truth from the Bible alone and we must be extremely accurate about what we read in the Bible.

      With respect to 1 Tim. 3:16, there is nothing in that verse to indicate that it speaks about God. It is all about Jesus. A few verses earlier, we read, “there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). In my view, you are guilty of misrepresenting the truth by knowingly or unknowingly quoting selectively.

      With respect to what Thomas said, remember that the Greek Bible has no word equivalent to the modern word “God.” The only word they had was equivalent to our word “god.” That word is used in the Bible for the true God and for many other beings; even for Satan. When the translator thinks that the true God is intended, it is translated as “God.” Otherwise, it is translated as “god.” In the very same chapter in which Thomas said, “my lord and my god” (John 20:28), Jesus also said that He is going to our God and His God (John 20:17). My brother in Christ, why do you omit to quote that verse?

      Let us be extremely careful to make a deep study of these things. We only have a short while on this earth. Then we will be held accountable for the things we said.

      Reply

  13. John 10:38 (NIV)
    John 14:11 (NIV)
    John 14:10 (NIV)
    This all proves that jesus is the father himself….

    Reply

    1. In John 14:11, Jesus said, “I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.” In John 10:38, He also said, “the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” But Jesus prayed for His disciples “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You” (John. 17:21). And, “that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity” (17:22-23).

      How can Jesus be the Father Himself? Did He pray to Himself? Did He ask Himself, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will” (Matt. 26:29)?

      Reply

    1. Hi William
      I like short comments! Hebrews 1:8 refers to Jesus as theos (god), but the next verse refers to the Father as His god (theos). This is similar to John 20, where Thomans refers to Jesus as god (theos), but Jesus refers to the Father as His god (theos).

      The word God, which is the modern name for the One who exists by Himself, does not exist in the Hebrew or Greek Bibles. They only had the word theos in Greek, which is the word for the Greek gods. To refer to the Father and the Son as theos only means that they are supernatural beings, such as the Greek god Zeus. When to translate theos as God or as god is pure interpretation. For further discussion, see Ignatius of Antioch or THEOS

      Reply

  15. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:1 NKJV
    We can verify that THE WORD MEANS JESUS in John 1:14
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Reply

  16. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
    Acts 20:28 NKJV
    For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Isaiah 9:6 NKJV
    Titus 2:12b-14 NKJV

    Reply

    1. Hi Werner

      I assume you are saying that Jesus is God.

      You must remember that the word “God” does not appear in the New Testament; at least not in the original Greek. All that we find in the Greek is the word theos, and that word is equivalent to our word “god.” When the translator thinks that “the Majesty on high” (Heb. 1:3) is intended, he translates theos with “God.” Otherwise, he translates theos with “god,” for instance, “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4).

      Since translators are Trinitarians, by and large, they believe that Jesus is God. Therefore, they translate the instances, where Jesus is identified as theos, as “God.” Then, when the man in the pew reads the Bible, he concludes that Jesus is “God.” It is like composite circular reasoning: One part of the church translates theos as “God” because they think Jesus is God; another part of the church thinks Jesus is God because the translation reads “God.”

      What would you have thought if Isaiah 9:6 read “mighty god,” and Titus 2:13 read “our great god and savior, Christ Jesus?” Don’t judge by appearances.

      Reply

  17. I do understand what has been said. As we speak about Trinity we mean three in one. How does Jesus perform all the miracles whereas He is not God?

    Reply

    1. Jesus did these miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. His disciples can do the same work. He said, “I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father” (John 14:12).

      Reply

    2. God gives Jesus the power to do anything that will help accomplish God’s plan to have a peaceful and better earth. rev 21:4.

      Reply

  18. Andries,

    I know who God is, God knows who He is, It seems many of your readers know who He is. You are the one trying to tell God who He is and is Not. This seems like something you should take up with Him and not assert to try to teach others.

    If you read with a good, older concordance, you will see very clearly who He is. This only comes by faith and being taught of Him.

    But to further muddy your understanding, I will also warn you that if you had read the Bible, with original language and the Spirit, you would have read that Jesus also admits that He is the Holy Spirit. Many times.

    Repent, dear deceived soul. Repent while there is still time. Lean not on your own understanding and being wise in your own eyes.

    The true danger in this understanding, is if you are wrong about the foundation, then this whole blog is built on a faulty foundation. I assume you will be too busy defending your own wisdom and beloved understanding and ideas. No need to reply. It’s irrelevant to me. But that each one will come to KNOW God and be known by Him, in truth. That will determine if the door is open to that soul.

    Who is the door opener? who is the Lord that will declare depart from me? But only God can judge and condemn. You have many discrepancies that you have not reconciled. I pray you will be able to even admit that you need to.

    Maranatha!

    Reply

    1. Dear Tara,
      I read the Bible different from you. There are many statements which indirectly imply who God is, but, much more important, there are a few places that directly define God:

      “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Cor. 8:6).

      “There is … one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (E[ph. 4:4).

      “There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 1:5).

      I assume that you believe what you believe because that is what people taught you. I would recommend that you study the Bible to arrive at your Christology. For example, search for the phrase “true God,” or take an entire book, like Revelation, and read it with the goal of understanding only this one thing; what does it say about Jesus?

      Andries

      Reply

  19. you are anti christ!.in revelation tells that whoever considered JeSUS Christ is Not God they are the anti Christ.

    Reply

    1. No, John wrote that he that denies that Jesus came in the flesh is the Antichrist (2 John 1:7). “Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22)

      Reply

  20. Andries if you deny that Jesus is God, you are a false prophet. Only a sinless God could die for my sins and save me. Jesus was and is God and man simultaneously. John the Baptist says in John 1:29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Only a sinless God can take away man’s sin. Therefore Andries, repent ‬‬from this false teaching.

    Reply

    1. Neels

      Firstly, you say “only a sinless God could die for my sins and save me.” I know that this is standard rhetoric, but where do you find it in the Bible? This seems to accept the general teaching that Jesus died to pacify an angry God. That is, in my view, not consistent with the Bible. It is the dominant view of God in Christianity, but still a heathen view of God. In the Bible, God saves us through Jesus, but it is God that saves. Perhaps my article WHY JESUS HAD TO DIE, will help.

      Secondly, the New Testament uses the title God almost always exclusively for the One Whom Jesus called Father. Therefore, do not be too quick to call me a false prophet. It is interesting, in Church History, how easily people excommunicated other Christians with a different understanding of the Bible. We need a more nuanced view of Jesus. He is the First and the Last, but distinct from God. He has all power in heaven and on earth, but received it from God. He created all things, but it was God who created all things through Him. I do not think it is wrong to refer to Jesus as God, for He is extremely similar and close to God, but Jesus is clearly not the Invisible Source of all things.

      Reply

        1. Hi Lou
          In the NASB 1 John 5:7-8 reads “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood.” You are probably using the KJV. Textual critics agree that the KJV contains a corrupted reading in this verse.

          Reply

          1. Hi Andries, regarding your comment above about “there are three that testify”…this is not a scripture about the trinity. It has wrongly been attributed to that doctrine by many, however, it in fact is nothing to do with it (even in the KJV version).
            It does point to a very interesting debate however, Textus receptus vs critical texts (such as Codex Sinaiticus.

            I am not a Baptists, i disagree with a number of Baptist doctrines vehemently (particularly southern baptists), however, I would urge you to take a look at Dr James Whites youtube channel on both the trinity and TR debates. He is an excellent resource with a lot of material (particularly debates with other scholars) about these two topics. Start off with youtube search of “trinity debate dr james white”. His youtube channel is https://www.youtube.com/c/AominOrg

          2. Adam, I have listened to James White many times. I listen to all views over and over until it becomes clear (at least to me) where they deviate from the truth. You may listen to Dr Tuggy’s podcasts 181 and 182 for one response to James White.

      1. Hi Linda, that is very true…however, as an incarnate man, God most definitely can and did die. That is the point. “He lowered himself to his own creation and died for their sins”. I dont think we could ever understand how that is possible, but the bible clearly states he did exactly that
        1. prophesied in Isaiah 7:4,
        2. again in Isaiah 9:6,
        3. Reiterated in Matthew 1:23
        4. Fulfilled at the crucifixion

        …a good question for heaven i think.

        Reply

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