Introduction
The Trinity Doctrine
In the Trinity theory, God is one Being but three co-equal and co-eternal Persons; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In this view, Jesus, together with the Father and the Spirit, is the Ultimate Reality; the uncaused Cause.
The Bible has a very high view of the Son.
The Bible does have a very high view of Jesus. Through Him, for example, God created all things (e.g., Heb 1:2-3). Jesus, therefore, has always existed. Also, through Him, God still maintains all things (e.g., Heb 1:2-3). The Father gave Him to have “life in Himself” (John 5:26) and “all judgment” (John 5:22). The Son is “He who searches the minds and hearts” (Rev 2:23). These examples show that the Son shares in the divine attributes of God.
But the Son is distinct from God.
This article shows that the Bible always maintains a distinction between God Almighty and Jesus Christ (e.g., Rev 21:22). All of Paul’s letters, for example, begin with phrases that make that distinction. For example:
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father
and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 1:7).
Note that this distinction is not between the Father and the Son – that we all agree; the distinction is between ‘God’ and the Son.
The Son is subordinate to the Father.
The Bible also presents the Son as subordinate to God (e.g., 1 Cor 11:3). For example, even 60 years after His ascension, in John’s visions, Jesus referred to His Father as His God (Rev 1:6; 3:2, 12).
We are unable to understand God.
Understanding the relationship between God and His Son is difficult or even impossible because we are trying to understand the infinite and the one Being who exists without cause. That should scare us. Compared to the infinite God and His infinite creation, we are like a one-cellular organism in a drop of water floating around in the oceans of the world; not knowing where we came from or where we are going. Compared to the Eternal, our existence is fleeting. How could we hope to understand the One who exists without cause?
The Apologists saw the Son as subordinate.
During the first three centuries, while Christianity still was persecuted by the Roman authorities, Christians believed that Jesus Christ is the Logos or Word of God who always existed in the Father but who became a separate Being when God wanted to create (see The Apologists). They all thought of the Son as subordinate to the Father (e.g., Origen).
Roman emperors enforced the Trinity doctrine.
But, in the fourth century, Rome legalized Christianity. This was followed by a huge controversy about who the Son of God is. There were at least four major views in this regard. But emperor Theodosius became convinced that one of those four views – what we know today as the Trinity doctrine – is the right one and outlawed and persecuted all other views. In this way, the Trinity doctrine became the sole official religion of the Roman Empire.
Therefore, as the series of articles on the historical development of the Trinity doctrine shows, it was the Roman Emperors, particularly Constantine, Theodosius, and Justinian, who decided and forced the church to adopt the Trinity doctrine. They did that by ensuring that the ‘right’ bishops are appointed, by manipulating the church councils, and, in the case of Theodosius, by making the Trinity doctrine a Roman law and brutally eliminating any opposition.
An analysis of church history shows that the church of the Middle Ages was a continuation of the religion of the Roman Empire and even today the Trinity doctrine is an inheritance from the Roman Empire.
The doctrine of God is the most important.
Trinitarians and Unitarians agree that the doctrine of God is the most important doctrine of the church. Therefore, for the mainstream church, the Trinity doctrine is the most important doctrine. People who reject it are regarded as outsiders and heretics. During the Middle Ages, such people were even killed.
The Great Controversy will be repeated.
However, the Trinity doctrine is inconsistent with the Bible. In the end-time, the truth of the Bible is being revealed. I suspect that the first great controversy in the church will again erupt to become the last Great Controversy.
Summary of this article
Only one God exists.
The Bible is very clear that only one God exists. Several New Testament verses contain related phrases, for example:
-
- “God is one” (Mark 12:28-30; James 2:19; Gal 3:20);
- “The one and only God” (John 5:44);
- “One God” (1 Cor 8:6; 1 Tim 2:5; Eph 4:4-6);
- “Only God” (Jude 1:25; John 5:44; 1 Tim 1:17); or
- “Only true God” (John 17:3).
The important point is that, in all these verses, the Father alone is God. In contrast, such verses often identify Jesus Christ as “Lord.” For example:
“There is but one God, the Father …
and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 8:6).
A Consistent Distinction
The Bible consistently maintains a distinction between God and Jesus. For example, all letters of the New Testament begin by making a distinction between God and Jesus. For instance:
“Peace from GOD our Father,
and the LORD Jesus Christ”
(Rom 1:7-8).
See also 1 Cor 1:3-4; Eph 1:2-3; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:2; Col 1:2; Philem 1:3; 1 Thess 1:1; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:2 and 2 John 1:3; cf. Eph 6:23).
Another example of the distinction which the Bible maintains between Jesus and God is that Jesus is the Image of the invisible God:
God is invisible, unknowable, and incomprehensible. God, the Father, “dwells in unapproachable light, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN or can see” (1 Tim 6:16-17; cf. 1 John 4:12; John 1:18; 6:46).
Jesus “is the IMAGE of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; cf. 2 Cor 4:4; Heb 1:3; John 1:18).
If God is invisible, while Jesus is His visible image, then Jesus is distinct from God. Therefore, if we want to base our definition of God is on the Bible, then we must use that title only for the Father.
The Father is Jesus’ God.
Jesus referred to the Father as His God (John 20:17; Matt 27:46). Even 60 years after His resurrection, when He gave to John the Book of Revelation, He referred to the Father as His God (Rev 3:2, 12; cf. 1:6). Paul, similarly, described the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:17; cf. Heb 1:8-9). And since God is also His God, Jesus prayed to God while on earth (John 17:1; Luke 6:16).
Jesus is at God’s right hand.
The New Testament often states that Jesus, at His ascension, “was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of GOD” (Mark 16:19; cf. Acts 7:56; Matt 26:62; Acts 2:33; 7:55; Rom 8:34 and Eph 1:20). This is the position of power over the entire universe; subject only to God.
The One who exists without cause
A number of New Testament verses identify God, the Father, as the Ultimate uncaused Cause of all things, in distinction to Jesus. For example:
“There is but one God, the Father,
FROM WHOM ARE ALL THINGS …
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
BY whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6; cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19; 1 Tim 6:13; Heb 1:1; John 1:3).
Many Other Examples
Many, many other passages may be listed to show that Jesus is both DISTINCT from God and SUBORDINATE to God. For example:
Before He had to suffer and die on the Cross, Jesus pleaded with His Father: “If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me” (Matt 26:39; cf. Matt 2:12, 22; Mark 10:18).
The book of Revelation distinguishes between “God and … the Lamb” (Rev 14:4; cf. 11:15; 21:22-23; 22:1, 3).
The Father “alone possesses immortality” (1 Tim 6:16).
Possible Objections
Various articles are available on this website that address possible objections to the view proposed above. For example:
Of the about 1300 times that the word Greek theos appears in the New Testament, it refers to Jesus about 7 times. But theos may be translated as “god” or as “God.” To translate the instances of theos, that refer to Jesus, as “God” is an application of the Trinity doctrine; not proof there-of. (For a further discussion, see, for example, the article on Hebrews 1:8 or on the word theos.)
Jesus’ statement, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30) means to be united in purpose and in work (see John 17:21-23).
Jesus said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:8-9) because He “is the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15.
Both John 1:1 and 1:18 refer to Jesus as God but both verses also make a distinction between God and Jesus. The Greek grammar requires John 1:1c to be translated as, “the Word was like God” and the original text of verse 18 is disputed.
Who is Jesus?
Jesus always existed and God created “all things” through Him (Heb 1:2), but this describes the Son only in terms of our little universe, for time and “all things” refer to our universe. Beyond our universe exists a completely incomprehensible but the true reality that is the source of our universe.
Fourth Century Controversy
The controversy about the nature of Christ arose early in the fourth century. An article series on this website shows that the Trinity doctrine became accepted in the church during the fourth to sixth centuries after the church became the official religion of the Roman Empire, with the Emperor as the actual head of the church. That article series shows that the decisions to adopt the Trinity doctrine were not taken by independent Church Councils, but by the Roman Emperors; particularly:
-
- Constantine, through his insistence on the word homoousios in the Nicene Creed in AD 325;
- Theodosius, through the edict of Thessalonica in AD 380 in which he made the Trinity doctrine the only legal religion of the Roman Empire, and eradicated all other Christian belief systems from the Roman Empire through fierce persecution; and
- Justinian who, after Arian tribes took control of Europe during the fifth century, in the sixth century significantly weakened these tribes and established the Byzantine Papacy, which, over the next two centuries, made an end to all resistance to the doctrine of the Trinity also outside the Roman Empire.
After this followed the Middle Ages, during which people were not allowed to read the Bible, and the church, through her control over civil authorities, put people to death that opposed her teachings: “In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth” (Rev 18:24)
This means that the church received the Trinity theory from the Roman Empire. As stated in Revelation 13:2, and as discussed in other articles on this website, the dragon (the Roman Empire), gave the beast from the sea (the Church of the Middle Ages) “his power and his throne and great authority.”
Subordinate to the Father
This article is the first of four that shows that Christ is distinct from and subordinate to God, the Father. The other articles provide evidence that:
-
- The Son is subordinate to the Father,
- The gospel of John, specifically, presents the Son as suborinate to the Father and that
- Only the Father is the Almighty.
Identifying Mark
This Website Also Opposes Other Traditional Doctrines Of The Church, Such As The Doctrine Of Eternal Torment, But The Most Vicious Attacks On This Website Are Aimed Against Its Views About The Trinity. Many Regard The Trinity Doctrine As The Identifying Mark Of True Christians. As Soon As One Rejects The Trinity Doctrine, You Are No Longer Regarded To Be A Christian.
– End of Summary –
The Father is the Only God.
There is only one God.
In opposition to the prevailing polytheism of the surrounding nations, one of the primary messages of the Old Testament is that there is only one God. For example:
The Shema announces:
“Hear, O Israel!
The LORD is our God,
The LORD is one!”
(Deut 6:4).
“The LORD” (Yahweh) declared:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God besides Me”
(Isaiah 44:6; cf. 45:21-22; 43:10-11).
The New Testament confirms this principle. For example, when asked what the most important commandment is, Jesus quoted the Shema:
“Hear, o Israel!
THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD”
(Mark 12:28-30).
James similarly wrote:
“You believe that GOD IS ONE;
you do well” (James 2:19).
The Father is the “One God.”
A number of verses in the New Testament (NT) contain the phrase “one God” and in all such instances, the Father alone is God:
“There is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER …
and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST” (1 Cor 8:6).
“For there is ONE GOD
and ONE MEDIATOR between God and mankind,
the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5).
“There is … ONE LORD,
one faith, one baptism,
ONE GOD AND FATHER of all
who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4:4-6).
These verses, in contrast to the “one God,” identifies Jesus as “Lord.”
There are many texts in the Bible that mention the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but the quoted verses specifically define God, and must, therefore, be regarded as very important when we ask who God is.
The Father is the “Only God.”
The following are the New Testament verses that contain the phrase “only God” or “only true God.” These verses confirm that the Father is the only God, while Jesus is identified as Lord:
“To the ONLY GOD our Savior, through Jesus Christ our LORD, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority” (Jude 1:25).
Jesus said, “you do not seek the glory that is from THE ONE AND ONLY GOD” (John 5:44).
In prayer, Jesus said to the Father, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3).
“To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the ONLY GOD, be honor and glory forever and ever” (1 Tim 1:17).
And in all these verses, the Father alone is God.
Note also the word “through” in Jude 1:25, quoted above. This word often describes the relationship between the Father and the Son. Everything we receive from God, we receive through His Son. And all glory we give to God, we give Him through His Son.
Is it then not sufficiently clear, from the above, that the New Testament presents the Father alone as God? If Jesus prayed to the “only true God” (John 17:3), how can Jesus also be God?
A Consistent Distinction
James White is perhaps the best-known Trinity apologist today. He emphasizes that the New Testament makes a distinction between the Father and the Son. However, that point is rather obvious. Our argument is rather that the New Testament consistently makes a distinction between God and the Lord Jesus, which means that Jesus is not God, as the New Testament uses the term “God.”
The introduction to every New Testament letter makes a distinction between God and Jesus. For example:
“Peace from GOD our Father,
and the LORD Jesus Christ” (Rom 1:7-8).
“Grace be unto you … from GOD our Father,
and from the LORD Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:3-4).
“Blessed be the GOD and Father
of our LORD Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:3).
See also Galatians 1:3, Ephesians 1:2, Philippians 1:2, Colossians 1:2, Philemon 1:3, 1 Thessalonica 1:1, James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:2 and 2 John 1:3; cf. Eph 6:23).
Therefore, if we want to derive our definition of the term “God” from the New Testament, then we must use that title for the Father alone.
(Do not place any reliance on the capital letters in the verses quoted. Remember, the New Testament was written only in capital letters.)
Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
God is invisible.
God “dwells in unapproachable light,
whom no man has seen or can see”
(1 Tim 6:16).
“No one has seen God at any time”
(1 John 4:12; cf. John 1:18).
“Not that anyone has seen the Father,
except the One who is from God;
He has seen the Father” (John 6:46; cf. Col 1:15; John 4:24).
The last verse quoted (John 6:46) identifies the Father as God and as distinct from Jesus. The Invisible God is the Source all things. He exists outside our physical realm of time, space and matter:
“By faith we understand …
that what is seen
was not made out of things which are visible” (Heb 11:3).
Jesus is His image.
Jesus “is the IMAGE of the invisible God” (Col 1:15).
“Christ, who is the IMAGE of God” (2 Cor 4:4)
“He is the radiance of His glory and
the exact representation of His (God’s) nature”
(Heb 1:1, 3).
God is invisible, unknowable, and incomprehensible. Human beings are unable to comprehend a Being that is not limited in space or time and Who exists without cause.
But in His Son, appearing in a form that we are able to understand, God becomes knowable, visible, and audible to the material creatures of the universe. For that reason, He is the Word of God (John 1:1, 14). If God is invisible, while Jesus is His visible image, then Jesus is distinct from God and, therefore, not God.
The Father is Jesus’ God.
Jesus referred to the Father as “My God.” For example:
“I ascend to MY FATHER and to your Father,
to MY GOD and to your God” (John 20:17).
Hanging on the Cross, Jesus cried out:
“MY GOD, MY GOD,
why have You forsaken me?“ (Matt 27:46).
Jesus identified the Father as His God even 60 years after His resurrection when He gave the Book of Revelation.
“He has made us to be a kingdom,
priests to His God and Father” (Rev 1:6).
“I have not found your deeds completed
in the sight of MY GOD” (Rev 3:2)
“I will write on him the name of MY GOD” (Rev 3:12).
Paul similarly described the Father as Jesus’ God:
“The Father of glory” is
“the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:17).
Since God is also His God, Jesus prayed to God when He was on earth (John 17:1; Luke 6:16):
“In the days of His flesh,
He offered up both prayers …
to the One able to save Him from death” (Heb 5:7).
The entire John 17 is a record of Jesus’ prayer to “the only true God” (John 17:1, 3). “He spent the whole night in prayer to God” (Luke 6:16).
Jesus is at God’s right hand.
The New Testament often mentions that Jesus is at God’s right hand. For example:
At His ascension, Jesus “was received up into heaven and sat down at the RIGHT HAND of GOD” (Mark 16:19).
Stephen, just before he was stoned, said, “I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the RIGHT HAND of GOD” (Acts 7:56).
Other examples include Matthew 26:62; Acts 2:33; 7:55; Romans 8:34 and Ephesians 1:20.
His position at God’s right hand is the position of power over the entire universe but subject to God. That confirms that Jesus is both DISTINCT from God and SUBORDINATE to God.
Trinitarian apologists claim that the Bible only makes a distinction between the Father and the Son but these examples make a distinction between God and Jesus.
The One who exists without cause
The Bible identifies only the Father as the uncaused Cause of all things. For example:
“There is but one God, the Father,
from whom are all things …
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
BY whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6).
“All things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself through Christ”
(2 Cor 5:18-19).
“In the presence of God,
who gives life to all things,
and of Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 6:13).
“God … in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, …
through whom also He made the world”
(Heb 1:1; cf. John 1:3; Rev 4:11).
The first verse quoted (1 Cor 8:6) identifies God as the Father. All of these verses contrast God with Jesus and identify God as the uncaused Cause of all things. The only begotten Son, therefore, is not the Almighty uncaused Cause of all things.
Note also the words “through” and “by” in these verses, indicating that God works “through” His Son. In this universe, God always works through His only begotten Son.
Many Other Examples
Many, many other passages may be quoted where God and Jesus are mentioned as distinct from one another. For example:
Before He had to suffer and die on the Cross, Jesus pleaded with His Father, “if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me;
yet NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL.”
(Matt 26:39 – Note that the Father and Jesus have distinct wills.)
The book of Revelation contains phrases such as “to God and to the Lamb” and “of God and of the lamb” (Rev 14:4; cf. 11:15; 21:22-23; 22:1, 3), which confirm that Jesus is distinct from God.
The Father “alone possesses immortality” (1 Tim 6:16). The immortality of all other beings is dependent on His immortality.
When Jesus was a baby, “God” warned his father Joseph “in a dream not to return to Herod” (Matt 2:12, 22).
Jesus asked the young ruler, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except GOD alone” (Mark 10:18).
Possible Objections
Various articles have been written to address possible objections to the view proposed above. Perhaps some may be mentioned:
Jesus is called God.
Of the about 1300 times that the word Greek theos appears in the New Testament, it refers about 7 times to Jesus. So why is Jesus called “God” in those instances? The reason is that the word theos may be translated as “god” or as “God,” depending on to whom it refers. It is up to the translators to decide when they will translate theos as “God” and when as “god.” To translate the instances of theos that refer to Jesus as “God” is an application of the Trinity doctrine; not proof there-of. (For a further discussion, see, for example, the article on Hebrews 1:8 or on the word theos.)
I and the Father are one.
In John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Some people read into this verse that Jesus just is the Father. To be “one,” however, does not mean to be literally one Person. Jesus, in His prayer for His followers, defined the term to “be one”:
“That they may be one as we are one“ (John 17:21-23).
To “be one,” therefore, means to be united in purpose and in work. It describes a relationship between distinct beings. As Jesus said, He did the works of the Father (John 10:32) and He only did what pleased the Father (John 8:28-29).
He who has seen me
When Philip said to Jesus, “Lord, show us the Father,” Jesus responded:
“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:8-9)
Some use this to say argue Jesus is the Father, but given the verses quoted above, we should rather conclude that Jesus said here that He is THE EXACT IMAGE of the Father. For a further discussion, see Seen the Father.
John 1
Both John 1:1 and 1:18 refers to Jesus as God. However, the same two verses also make a distinction between God and Jesus by saying:
“The Word was with God” (John 1:1) and
“No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18).
Why is He called God if He is not God? The article series on John 1:1 concludes that the Greek grammar requires John 1:1c to be translated as:
“The Word was like God.”
John 1:1 then has the same meaning as Philippians 2:5, which says that Jesus, before His birth, “existed in the form of God” and had equality with God.
The article on John 1:18 shows that the original text is disputed. Many ancient manuscripts refer to Jesus as huios (son) and not as theos (god). But even if John originally did describe Jesus as theos, we must still remember that, in the Greek language, the word theos is used for any supernatural and immortal being. It is up to the translator to decide whether to translate theos as “God” or as “god.”
Jesus is God if …
Since the New Testament consistently makes a distinction between the Father as God (theos) and Jesus as Lord (kurios), and since we should derive our terminology from the Bible, we should conclude that the Father alone is God.
However, since the word theos may be translated as “god” or as “God,” before we can ask whether Jesus is God, we must first define the word “God.”
God created all things through His Son (Heb 1:2) and Christ upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb 1:3). It is possible to define the title “God” so as to include Jesus, but then we will have two Gods.
But if we define God as the Almighty; the Uncaused Cause of all things, then the Father alone is God. The Father is the only true God (John 17:3) and the only truly immortal Being (1 Tim 1:17; Rev 4:10); the invisible and unknowable Ultimate Cause of all things (Rev 4:11). He is our God and also Jesus’ God. The Lord Jesus is always subject to and subordinate to the only true God. To use Bible terminology, “God is the head of Christ” (1 Cor 11:3).
Who is Jesus?
Given how the Bible describes Jesus, for example, that God created all things through Him (Heb 1:2) and that Jesus upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb 1:3), we find it difficult to distinguish between God and Jesus. But consider the following:
This universe is finite.
It contains a fixed quantum of mass/energy and has existed for a fixed period (13 billion years). Since everything that begins to exist must have a cause, the universe was caused by something.
Beyond the universe
Since things exist, and not nothing, something must exist without a cause and, therefore, without a beginning. Since time and energy/mass came into being when the universe came into being, time does not exist in the completely incomprehensible but true reality which exists beyond our universe, and which is the source of our universe.
The Son of God
Therefore, even if we say that there never was a time that Jesus did not exist, that statement describes the Son only relative to our little universe. And even though God brought “all things” into being through His Son, “all things” must be limited to this universe, for “all things” do not include God or the Son Himself. In other words, there still exists an incomprehensible reality outside the time, space and mass in terms of which the unique Son of God is described.
God
That incomprehensible reality, I would propose, is God. However, it is not humanly possible to understand God. Why is there not nothing? How can we understand a being that exists without cause? “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us” (Deut 29:29).
We need to accept what the Bible revealed, such as that the Bible identifies the Father alone as the Almighty, and not speculate about things that have not been revealed.
Inherited from the Roman Empire
A series of articles on this website discusses the history of the development of the Trinity theory.
First Three Centuries
The series starts with articles that show that Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and other church fathers of the first three centuries were not Trinitarians. They had a very high view of Christ, and even described Jesus as theos but always as subordinate to the Father, who they identified as the only true and almighty theos.
Fourth Century
The controversy over the nature of Christ arose early in the fourth century when a presbyter named Arius taught that, with respect to the Son, “there was when He was not.” But since he also believed that the Son existed before time began, the phrase “there was when He was not” does not refer to time but simply means that the Father was the Ultimate Source of all things. In other words, the Son received His existence from the Father and, therefore, was subordinate to Him.
To bring an end to the controversy, Emperor Constantine called the Council of Nicaea of the year 225 and exerted his influence on the formulation of the Nicene Creed. That creed declared the Son to be “true God from true God.” To justify this view, the Nicene Creed ventured that the Father and Son are of the “same substance” (homoousios).
However, over the fifty years following Nicaea, more or less from 330 to 380, the church rejected the Nicene Creed and returned to Arianism. Constantine’s successors, Emperors Constantius and Valens were Arians and actively encouraged the church to reverse the Nicene Creed. They exiled bishops teaching the Nicene Creed and crushed the Nicene party.
But then Theodosius – an ardent supporter of the Nicene Creed – became emperor in 380. In the same year, he outlawed Arianism and exiled all Arian bishops. He did this before the famous 381 Council. Arian church leaders were not allowed to attend that council. Consequently, that council accepted and refined the Nicene Creed.
Fifth Century
After Theodosius died, the Western Roman Empire weakened. Germanic tribes, who previously migrated into the Empire, reached such large numbers and high positions in the Roman army that they, in reality, controlled the Western Roman Empire. Over the course of the fifth century, they divided the territory of the Western Empire into Germanic kingdoms. Since these Germanic peoples were Arians, the Western Empire was Arian once again!
In the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire), with Constantinople as its capital, Nicene Christianity remained dominant.
Sixth Century – Byzantine Papacy
To free the Roman Church in the west from Arian domination, Emperor Justinian, emperor of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire in the sixth century, sent troops to combat the Arian nations and significantly weakened them. His troops dispersed the Vandals to the fringes of the empire, forced the Ostrogoths back north to South Austria, and barricaded the Visigoths with the new province of Spania.
Some Arian nations remained, but after liberating the Roman Church from Arian domination, the Byzantine Empire continued to protect, strengthen and reign over the Roman Church in the west. Through two centuries of Byzantine rule over the Papacy (known as the Byzantine Papacy), the Byzantine Empire, through the Roman Church, converted the remaining Arian kingdoms, one after the other, to Nicene Christology.
Conclusion
Given the facts reflected in this brief overview, it is not possible to deny the decisive influence which the emperors had on the church’s acceptance of the Trinity doctrine. As mentioned above, Constantine and Theodosius respectively manipulated the key creeds of 325 and 381, and Justinian, through the Byzantine Papacy, wiped Arianism out.
This means that the church received the Trinity theory from the Roman Empire. As stated in Revelation 13:2, the dragon (the Roman Empire), gave the beast from the sea (the Church of the Middle Ages) “his power and his throne and great authority.”
Who is God?
We do not understand why or where or how we exist. Our earth is like a speck of dust in this galaxy and the galaxy is like a drop of water floating in the oceans of the world. Each of us lives for about 70 years but this universe has existed for about 13000000000 years, the scientists say. For these reasons, it is impossible to understand. I think it is ridiculous that some clever people claim that God does not exist. For me, the miracles of nature and the miracles which I think I found in the Bible are adequate proof – not only that God exists but also that He is a kind and loving Person.
But who is God? How can we explain that? His thoughts are as high above ours as the stars are above the earth. My best explanation is as follows: All things have a cause but there must be something that exists without cause, otherwise nothing would exist. So, in my view, God is that which exists without cause.
But if He is that, then He also is that which exists, meaning that everything that exists came forth from His being. In other words, our universe exists somewhere within God; God does not exist somewhere in the universe.
All of that is pretty impossible to understand. The infinity scares me. Our existence is completely dependent on the First Cause. Therefore I cling to the statement in the Bible that Jesus is the image of God. It makes me very glad to think that God is like Jesus.
The Trinity
The trinity teaches that God asked himself to go to earth to save mankind.
Then he agreed with himself and volunteered himself to himself to offer himself.
Then God impregnated a woman as himself, with himself.
God prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly.
God strengthened himself and talked to himself.
Finally God forsook himself and sacrificed himself to prove his loyalty to himself.
While dead, he resurrected himself so he could exalt himself above himself.
Then he sat at his own right hand and waited till he placed his enemies as a footstool.
Finally, with Satan’s forces defeated, Jesus would turn his kingdom over to himself that all things would become everything to himself.
Hi Gavin, that is not entirely correct. Your comment assumes that the Trinity doctrine teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one PERSON. That is not true. It teaches that they are three PERSONS but one SUBSTANCE. There are various forms of the Trinity doctrine. The traditional (catholic) doctrine is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have ONE MIND and WILL but there are also many people who believe that they have THREE different MINDS and WILLS. If you are interested in a detailed discussion, I would recommend Dr. Tuggy’s TRINITIES podcast. I believe his Christology is off, but the quality of his podcasts is good.
John 5:23 – this verse is especially clear in stating that one should “honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” If we honor the Father as God, then the Son should be “just as” honored.
John 8:56-58 – did Jesus commit blasphemy here, calling Himself “I AM”, a name reserved only for the YHWH Father God? (see Exodus 3:14)
John 20:28 – if Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus not swiftly correct Thomas when he uttered these words? Furthermore, this is clearly an act of worship on Thomas’ part. If Jesus is only a servant only of God, then why didn’t Jesus correct Thomas the same way as the angel corrected John in Revelation 22:9?
The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as God was one of the major stumbling blocks which prevented the Jews from fully receiving Christ (see Luke 5:21, John 5:18, John 10:33, John 8:59).
I think you also missed the fact that the Trinity doctrine/modalism (as explained in GotQuestions) embraces the Biblical truth that there absolutely is subordination within the Trinity. This does not take away from Jesus’ status as God but simply reinforces the fact that there is divine mystery found in the relationship among the Three Members; mystery that we cannot yet comprehend.
Love and Blessings to you in Christ.
If Jesus is not God, then how does one explain the following verses:
Isaiah 9:6-7 – did the prophet Isaiah get it wrong when he intimated that the Father YAHWEH and Son are One, stating that the Son is “Mighty God” even going so far as to call the Son as “Everlasting Father”?
Zechariah 12:10 – it is clear that in this whole chapter the LORD YAHWEH God is talking here. Why then does He say “they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son” ? In this one verse alone, the LORD Father refers to the Son as both “Me” and “Him”, thus clearly indicating that as much as they are One, they are different Divine Persons.
Luke 5:20-21 – I think we can all agree that only YAHWEH God can forgive sins. So was Jesus committing blasphemy in this verse, like so many catholic priests do today?
WITH RESPECT TO ISAIAH 9:6
Firstly, those verses do not say that the Father YAHWEH and Son are One. Those verses talk ONLY about the Son.
Secondly, it does not say that the Son is “Mighty God.” It says that the Son is “mighty god.” The ancient languages did not have a word equivalent to the modern word “God.” Ancient documents and the Bible were written ONLY IN CAPITAL LETTERS. The only word that the ancients had was equivalent to the modern word “god.” In these ancient languages, the title “god” refers to an immortal being with supernatural powers. It would include the angels. In ancient thought, there were many “gods.” For example, the ancient Greek gods. Therefore, Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Son as “mighty god.”
In contrast, the title “God” is a modern invention. It functions like a name for ONE specific Being, namely The Ultimate Reality; the One who exists without cause. To translate Isaiah 9:6 as “Mighty God” is an interpretation. It is based on the ASSUMPTION that the Son is the Most High. It is not proof there-of. For a further discussion, see – The Meanings of the Word THEOS.
Thirdly, Isaiah 9:6 does refer to the Son as “everlasting father,” but to read this as referring to the One whom Jesus in the New Testament called His Father is firstly an anachronism and secondly modalism. (Modalism is where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are regarded as ONE PERSON. I think we should agree that the New Testament presents the Father and Son as distinct persons.) So, what Isaish 9:6 is saying is that the Son would be like a father to us.
WITH RESPECT TO ZECHARIAH 12:10
There were two distinct divine Beings in Zechariah’s visions, namely the LORD of hosts and the Angel of the LORD (Zech 1:11). The Angel of the LORD is also called YHVH (translated as “the LORD”) (Zech 3:2), acts as Judge, and forgives Joshua his sins (Zech 3:1-3). In other words, the Angel of the LORD seems to be God. Zechariah 12 also seems to equate “the angel of the LORD” with “God” (Zech 12:8).
However, He asks the LORD of hosts for a decision about Jerusalem (Zech 1:12) and conveys a message from the LORD to Joshua (Zech 3:6-7). These things, as well as His title, “Angel of the LORD,” which means messenger of the LORD, imply that He is SUBORDINATE to the LORD of hosts, just like, in the New Testament, the Son is subordinate to the Father (e.g., 1 Cor 11:3; Rev 1:6; 3:12).
So, which YHVH is talking in Zechariah 12:10? Since the angel of the LORD always seems to be the Messenger, could that be Him talking? For a further discussion, see – If He always existed, where do we find Jesus in the Old Testament?
WITH RESPECT TO LUKE 5:20-21 – FORGIVING SINS
In these verses, Jesus forgives the sins of a man. We already saw that the Angel of the LORD forgave Joshua his sins (Zech 3:5). The Son is the Judge and, therefore, He is the One who forgives sins BECAUSE “not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22). But note that, since He received “all judgment” from the Father, that this confirms that the Son is subordinate to His Father.
If Jesus is not God, then how does one explain the following verses:
John 1:1, John 10:30 – these speak for themselves
John 5:23 – this verse is especially clear in stating that one should “honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” If we honor the Father as God, then the Son should be “just as” honored.
John 8:56-58 – did Jesus commit blasphemy here, calling Himself “I AM”, a name reserved only for the YHWH Father God? (see Exodus 3:14)
John 20:28 – if Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus not swiftly correct Thomas when he uttered these words? Furthermore, this is clearly an act of worship on Thomas’ part. If Jesus is only a servant only of God, then why didn’t Jesus correct Thomas the same way as the angel corrected John in Revelation 22:9?
The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as God was one of the major stumbling blocks which prevented the Jews from fully receiving Christ (see Luke 5:21, John 5:18, John 10:33, John 8:59).
I think you also missed the fact that the Trinity doctrine (as explained in GotQuestions) embraces the Biblical truth that there absolutely is subordination within the Trinity. This does not take away from Jesus’ status as God but simply reinforces the fact that there is divine mystery found in the relationship among the Three Members; mystery that we cannot yet comprehend.
Love and Blessings to you in Christ.
JOHN 1:1 – THE WORD WAS GOD
I feel very passionate about this verse because I regard this translation as blatant dishonesty. Do some research and you will see that it is common knowledge that this phrase is a very specific grammatical Greek construct that uses the word theos in a qualitative sense (i.e., the word is like God). Despite this, translators continue to translate theos here in a definite form (i.e., the word is God.). Since it uses theos qualitatively, John 1:1c is similar to Colossians 1:15, which says that “He is the image of the invisible God.” I have a series of articles on John 1:1.
JOHN 10:30 – I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE
This must not be interpreted literally. For example, Jesus prayed for His disciples, saying to His Father, “that they may be one, just as We are one” (John 17:22). See – Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Does that mean that Jesus is God?
JOHN 5:23
Yes, we must “honor the Son just as they honor the Father” but that does not mean that they are equal, for the Father gave the Son a name that is about all other names so that all should worship Him “to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:9-11). See – Does Philippians 2 say that Jesus emptied Himself of equality with God?
JOHN 8:56-58 – I AM
Jesus called Himself “I AM” (cf. Exodus 3:14) because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Remember, the Almighty (a title the Bible uses ONLY for Most High – cf. Rev 21:22) is not part of this universe. On the contrary, He is the Source of creation. Therefore, just like Jesus was visibly on earth while His Father was invisibly in “heaven,” the Son is the One visibly representing the Almighty everywhere in creation. Therefore, I hold, everywhere we read about God appearing visibly in the Old Testament, it really was the one we call Jesus Christ.
JOHN 20:28 – MY LORD AN MY GOD
For the three years or more before John 20:28, Jesus never taught His disciples that He is God (cf. John 10:36). Neither did the disciples, after Thomas said this, teach that Jesus is God. Therefore, Thomas could not have said that Jesus is God. Consequently, there was no need for Jesus to correct Thomas. In my article on John 20:28, I discuss various possible meanings of Thomas’ words.
PREVENTED THE JEWS
You wrote:
The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as God was one of the major stumbling blocks which prevented the Jews from fully receiving Christ (see Luke 5:21, John 5:18, John 10:33, John 8:59).
No. The Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Christ; the Son of God (Matt 26:63, 68; Luke 22:67-71).
TRINITY DOCTRINE
You also wrote:
I think you also missed the fact that the Trinity doctrine (as explained in GotQuestions) embraces the Biblical truth that there absolutely is subordination within the Trinity. This does not take away from Jesus’ status as God but simply reinforces the fact that there is divine mystery found in the relationship among the Three Members; mystery that we cannot yet comprehend.
We need to distinguish between:
• Functional subordination – the theory that the members of the Godhead voluntary subordinate themselves one to another, but are equal in being, and
• Subordation in being – the view that the Son is inherently subordinate to the Father; also called ontological subordination.
GotQuestions accepts functional subordination but not subordation in being. In my view, the Son, as the only begotten Son of God (cf. Nicene Creed) is subordinate to the Father in His very being and, therefore, also functionally subordinate to Him.
But I like your statement that the trinity is a mystery very much. I’d prefer that we just repeat what the New Testament says and not be dogmatic about things we cannot understand.
Thank you for the kind tone of your comment. So often people find it necessary to insult me personally regarding my views on the trinity.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to the points I raised. Although we disagree, I do recognize your sincerity in this website to prevent people from being deceived by the spirit of the antichrist in these last days that we are now in. Love and Blessings to you in Christ Jesus our LORD and Savior.
great points don…and we can add a further one that is even more significant…How does one explain Jesus sitting in the midst of the throne in Revelation 7:17? In fact, if we read Revelation 17:15-17 it is very clear that Jesus and God are one and the same. If they are not a triune Godhead, then Jesus by Himself is God here. How is that even possible…is not the Father God? Does not God, according the Isaiah NOT delegate his power to anyone else? This is one of the huge flaws in Arian doctrine…If God is all powerful and does not delegate to anyone else, “I am God, there is no one else (Isaiah 45)”, then how could we possibly reconcile Jesus sitting in the midst of the throne in Revelation 7?
Jesus is “in the center of the throne” (Rev 7:17) because, as He said, “I also overcame
and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev 3:21). Similarly, “her child was caught up to God and to His throne” (Rev 12:5). A very important principle is that Revelation maintains a constant distinction between God and Jesus. For example, “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1, 3) will be in the New Jerusalem. There are, therefore, two Persons on the throne. Since one is identified as God, the other is not God. Stephen similarly said, “I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God” (Acts 7:56). For a further discussion, see my article on the Christology of the Book of Revelation.
Something else, you often refer to the “Arian” doctrine. Actually, there is no one “Arian” doctrine. The views range from a mere man Christology, namely that Jesus did not exist before His birth from Mary, to the view that the Son always existed and that God created all things through Him, but that He always was subordinate to the Most High. But Trinitarians like to cluster all such views under the title Arianism.
And are you also aware that what you call Arianism dominated the church during the first four centuries? This only changed in the year 380, when the Roman Emperor Theodosius made the Trinity doctrine the only legal religion in the Roman Empire, and ruthlessly destroyed all traces of the different non-Trinitarian views that dominated until that time.
Dear Andries
Thank you for the incredible and accurate research you have put into all your work. I agree with all you have said as it comes directly from scripture.
I have realized some time ago that one of the biggest reasons for the “great misleading” comes through the pen of the translator. One would be naïve to think that the powers and principalities of this dark world have not a hand in this. How else would it be possible to establish the antichrist? False doctrine and teaching through corrupted translations.
I love Jesus with my whole heart and I am thankful that He came to teach us about his Father’s love for us all. Everything that the Bible teaches about Jesus is true. Jesus even tells us who He is and why his Father sent him to us.
I believe that GOD, the Son of GOD and the Spirit of GOD work and function as a unit. But there is only one GOD, the Father and his name is YHWH.
There is a movement that started recently and I can sense an urgency in it… RETURN TO THE FATHER. Your research on the Sabbath is also accurate and we will see the importance of the Sabbath when the final prophesies are fulfilled. The mark of the beast VS. The mark of GOD.
I pray that our GOD and Father will continue to lead you through his Spirit into truth. I pray this in the wonderful name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Thanks, De Vries
In the view of some, the Sabbath is the “mark” or “seal” of God. But even if that is true, one should not assume that the Mark of the Beast is the alternative, namely Sunday worship. Rather, we should ask what the beast is, and then, to identify its mark, I would propose that we ask what the distinctive feature of the beast is. One of my articles argue that the beast is the mainstream church of Christianity. So, what would its distinctive feature be?
Dear Andries
Could you also just clarify the following please?
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23
I don’t recall reading about this verse.
Best regards.
De Vries
Hi De Vries
Immanuel was the name of a literal boy in the Old Testament (Isa 7:14, 16). That boy was not God. Similarly, the fact that Jesus is called Immanuel does not mean that He Himself is the Most High.
Philip asked to see the Father. Jesus responded, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:8-9). That is how I understand the application of the name Immanuel to Jesus. It does not mean that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15). When He is with us, it is as if God is with us.
excellent response regarding the Mark of the Beast Andries. I think that whilst it could be seen as failure to keep the Sabbath…in an of itself, i believe the doctrine is a far reaching issue. The mark of the beast i believe comes from those who do not exercise the patience of the saints…ie those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. Clearly the Sabbath would be one of those commandments, however, if we consider the story of the Good Samaritan, the testimony of Jesus should also be included. We are to also love our neighbour as ourselves.
God and Jesus both are real scumbags.
If it was true what some people (churches) say about them, such as that God will torture sinners for all eternity, or that God is angry at sinners and that Jesus had to die to placate Him, I would agree with you. But the purpose of this website is to prove that God is not like people say He is. He gave His only unique Son to save the human race. If Jesus failed, not only would the human race have been lost, but the Son would have suffered some loss which we cannot understand. Satan said that, given the right circumstances, even the Son would give in to the lure of sin. Jesus became man so that He could be tested. Despite all the temptations that Satan threw at Him, He never set Him own needs above that of others. Therefore, we can be assured, God and Jesus have always been and will always be completely unselfish.
I think you should also remember, Jesus “the man” was the person who died for our sins. He was the incarnate God. Only God can forgive sins, and as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, only a perfect being (a God) is capable of paying the price for sin. Jesus the mere man, an imperfect being couldnt forgive or pay the price for anything.
That is why Jesus must be a coequal God. God doesnt delegate his power an authority to anyone (Isaiah)…and this is the fundamental reason why Arianism is a deeply flawed doctrine.
I do not think so. the Father has given all judgment to the Son (John 5:22). Therefore Jesus most certainly can forgive sins.
Furthermore, you use one specific atonement theory to justify your view that Jesus is God. You say Jesus paid a price. To whom? Do you regard God as angry? I hold to a different atonement theory according to which the Son must NOT be God.
You say that “God doesn’t delegate his power an authority to anyone” but Jesus said “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Matt 28:18).
It is sad to see this post and so many people commenting wrongly about God. I suggest reading online “Understanding the Trinity: How can God be three Persons in One?” by Matt Perman and/or “Trinity” by got questions. The trinity is foundation to our faith and salvation. Learn it, search it, pray, read, understand. God bless. Jesus is God.
Thanks for the comment. I scanned Matt Perman’s short article. It is a conversion of the Athanasian Creed into more normal language. But the question is not How can God be three Persons in One, the question is what does the Bible say? Does the Bible say that Jesus is God? John summarized his gospel with these words, “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31). He did not say, “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is God.”
I was a born again christian, but after reading Dr. Richard Carrier’s arguments, I became convinced there was no real flesh and blood Jesus.
Hi Tomas
The Thomas of the Bible also said, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe” (John 20:25).
One thing that worries me about your view is the statement “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 1:7)
Through all the discussion above. At the end of the day people will choose their belief based on their understanding using a human brain.
When we pray to the lord / our God … do we use our brain only, or our heart? Doesn’t our heart cry out to God not our limited intellect ?
So the discussion of right and wrong ways to see Lord Jesus , and then telling our fellow brothers and sisters that they are in danger of preaching one way or another about who Jesus is and if wrong will be judged ….mmmmm…. I don’t know seems a little off the mark of why we are Christians.
On the one hand yes we want to share who Jesus is to people to show them the path of Jesus….. so it stands to serve we do want to know who Jesus is himself…..
But Jesus own saying if Love the lord your God with all your being…. Should we not maybe focus on teaching what Jesus said… and then helping people find faith in what Jesus said and faith in God , trinity or not … our faith runs deeper than wondering about trinity or not…..
Again I return to the heart, we call out to God and wether we say Lord Jesus through you I pray to God… or do as Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer: “our father who arrived in heaven…
Both ways are one and the same , no need to be divided …. I doubt God would worry about you praying through Lord Jesus to God or ? Only to God…. Our father in heaven.
So ultimately what I want to say is … it’s a endless debate that will confuse many people and get them looking at a path rather than at the destination … getting stuck in mud on a path to glory is counter productive.
Teach people to do what Jesus said , Jesus said Father in heaven…pray and teach others to pray… so that the Holy Spirit will guide our hearts and not our human intellect which is limited.
Just my view point I wanted to share . Knowledge has limits , but spirit moving us as did the apostles receiving the Holy Spirit know God without words……
Perhaps the key is such … anything that starts a debate is actually human and thinking…. Which is not bad at all but is not as powerful as spirit moving us that goes beyond thinking into our core …
Hi Richard
Yes. I have thought much about what the difference is. And the difference, in my mind is very important. Let me say it like this: Satan saw in the nature of Christ an ideal opportunity to create division in the church. The division got teeth in the fourth century when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and the first Christians were killed for preaching contrary to the Trinity doctrine. See Boyd. Over the centuries, many more Christians were killed for not accepting the Trinity doctrine, even by Protestants. See Michael Servetus. Now, I think we are approaching the end-time, and people will again be killed for their faith. We need to know what the truth is.
As we go on to debate such matters, the unity of most starts to fall apart. That is the very reason why there are so many denominations. In the beginning there was only one religion, one language and God dwelling with His people. It is no wonder that Hosea 4:6 declares that my people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge. It also goes further to say that because they have rejected the truth.
Everyone seems to say that they hold the truth, but somewhere among all those with different views the truth stands. But because of religion some are blinded and cannot see the truth. I want us to slow down and think carefully and pray fully on what Jesus says in Matthew 7:21 when Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of heaven”. And in Luke 13:24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
When translations are done from the Hebrew words, one must carefully bring it into context, otherwise one can choose a word that suits and then get it wrong. Paul states “For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ”. Then we look at scripture 1 Tim 3 16 that God was made manifest. Now manifest translation indicates the following…to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way.
As we note to make visible, and God is invisible and was made visible to man as seen in 1Tim 3:16. Jesus also says to the Jews in John 8:58, “Truly, truly I say to you, that before Abraham was born, I Am. Now the only one declaring to be I Am was God when He said to Moses in Exodus 3:14, “I Am who I Am”.
Jesus says in John 8:58 before Abraham was born, I Am. What a statement from Jesus to make when he says I Am. We then only can conclude from all this and other scriptures that Jesus is was God in the flesh.
I pray that we seek God in all matters and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth before the word of God is distorted.
Dear Derrick,
I appreciate your caution. I do believe that clear thinking is critical with respect to the Trinity doctrine, which is regarded by many as the cornerstone of Christianity and which forms the basis of many other doctrines of the church, such as the doctrine of the atonement.
I use the NASB. In the NASB, 1 Timothy 3 16 does not say anything about “God was made manifest.” The NASB reads, “great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh.” Perhaps this is a less clear verse.
I do believe that, in John 8:58, Christ claimed to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14. God created all things through Him (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2). Before He became a human being, “He existed in the form of God” and had “equality with God” (Phil 2:6), but those quotes still mean that He is distinct from God. God is invisible (Col 1:15) because He exists outside time, space and matter. I believe that the One who appeared visibly as God in the Old Testament is the Son.
There are many texts that ascribe divine qualities to the Son. But the Bible is also clear that He is distinct from and subordinate to Him. My caution is this: Do not select a key verse, such as John 8:58, and ignore the vast number of verses that do not fit the Trinity doctrine.
I do understand that this is difficult. Infinity is beyond human understanding. But allow me to say how I try to make sense of the fact that the Bible describes the Son both as divine and as distinct and subordinate to God: Scientists know much more today than they knew when the Bible was written. Today we learn that this universe came into being 13 billion years ago through the Big Bang. But the source of intelligence and power, that caused the universe to come into existence, exists outside space, time, and matter. In my mind, I associate Christ with this universe and God with than invisible but true reality beyond this universe. But that is not Bible exegesis; this is just I make sense of the Bible facts.
Brethren, let us not confuse ourselves with the Trinity of God. The Bible is very clear on God`s plan of redemption. Note God is Spirit who can possess any form, any character. His appearances to humans depend on His purpose. At times He appeared as a fire…..Story of the burning bush, As spirit…Day of Pentecost, or as a friend and Human {Jesus Christ). So when Jesus prayed to the Father, this does not mean he was not God. But it was a demonstration to humanity that only one in Heaven is worthy to receive worship.
1 Timothy 3 v 11 – 16…God appeared to his earth as a human. Seen by angels.
Therefore, his purpose was to save his people from sin. After His resurrection, Thomas began to know him completely that he is the true God.
……For all the time along, he took him as Lord and not God….but when he touched Jesus’ hands, he fell down and cried…My Lord and My God. If Jesus was not true God he could have rebuked this word…My God
Again remember the devil said, worship me and if you do all this kingdom of the world will be given to you…Jesus said…Get away from me Satan: Worship the Lord your God and immediately Satan knew that he was speaking to God himself in Flesh.
Therefore Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Meaning the body of Jesus represents God’s love for humankind and the Spirit of God in Jesus represents his love for heavenly beings. Jesus took all forms of God. This God who speaks as a word during creation, appeared as blazing fire is now fully live as a human but his Spirit is everywhere present
Thank you
Dear Pardon
I appreciate your views, but if we want to represent God on this earth, we must seek the truth even if that goes against what the mighty men of this world preach. We must seek the truth from the Bible alone and we must be extremely accurate about what we read in the Bible.
With respect to 1 Tim. 3:16, there is nothing in that verse to indicate that it speaks about God. It is all about Jesus. A few verses earlier, we read, “there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). In my view, you are guilty of misrepresenting the truth by knowingly or unknowingly quoting selectively.
With respect to what Thomas said, remember that the Greek Bible has no word equivalent to the modern word “God.” The only word they had was equivalent to our word “god.” That word is used in the Bible for the true God and for many other beings; even for Satan. When the translator thinks that the true God is intended, it is translated as “God.” Otherwise, it is translated as “god.” In the very same chapter in which Thomas said, “my lord and my god” (John 20:28), Jesus also said that He is going to our God and His God (John 20:17). My brother in Christ, why do you omit to quote that verse?
Let us be extremely careful to make a deep study of these things. We only have a short while on this earth. Then we will be held accountable for the things we said.
John 10:38 (NIV)
John 14:11 (NIV)
John 14:10 (NIV)
This all proves that jesus is the father himself….
In John 14:11, Jesus said, “I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.” In John 10:38, He also said, “the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” But Jesus prayed for His disciples “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You” (John. 17:21). And, “that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity” (17:22-23).
How can Jesus be the Father Himself? Did He pray to Himself? Did He ask Himself, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will” (Matt. 26:29)?
Hebrews 1:8
Hi William
I like short comments! Hebrews 1:8 refers to Jesus as theos (god), but the next verse refers to the Father as His god (theos). This is similar to John 20, where Thomans refers to Jesus as god (theos), but Jesus refers to the Father as His god (theos).
The word God, which is the modern name for the One who exists by Himself, does not exist in the Hebrew or Greek Bibles. They only had the word theos in Greek, which is the word for the Greek gods. To refer to the Father and the Son as theos only means that they are supernatural beings, such as the Greek god Zeus. When to translate theos as God or as god is pure interpretation. For further discussion, see Ignatius of Antioch or THEOS
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 NKJV
We can verify that THE WORD MEANS JESUS in John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hi Werner, yes, that is what I attempted in The Identity of the Word in John 1:1.
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Acts 20:28 NKJV
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 NKJV
Titus 2:12b-14 NKJV
Hi Werner
I assume you are saying that Jesus is God.
You must remember that the word “God” does not appear in the New Testament; at least not in the original Greek. All that we find in the Greek is the word theos, and that word is equivalent to our word “god.” When the translator thinks that “the Majesty on high” (Heb. 1:3) is intended, he translates theos with “God.” Otherwise, he translates theos with “god,” for instance, “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4).
Since translators are Trinitarians, by and large, they believe that Jesus is God. Therefore, they translate the instances, where Jesus is identified as theos, as “God.” Then, when the man in the pew reads the Bible, he concludes that Jesus is “God.” It is like composite circular reasoning: One part of the church translates theos as “God” because they think Jesus is God; another part of the church thinks Jesus is God because the translation reads “God.”
What would you have thought if Isaiah 9:6 read “mighty god,” and Titus 2:13 read “our great god and savior, Christ Jesus?” Don’t judge by appearances.
I do understand what has been said. As we speak about Trinity we mean three in one. How does Jesus perform all the miracles whereas He is not God?
Jesus did these miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. His disciples can do the same work. He said, “I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father” (John 14:12).
God gives Jesus the power to do anything that will help accomplish God’s plan to have a peaceful and better earth. rev 21:4.
Andries,
I know who God is, God knows who He is, It seems many of your readers know who He is. You are the one trying to tell God who He is and is Not. This seems like something you should take up with Him and not assert to try to teach others.
If you read with a good, older concordance, you will see very clearly who He is. This only comes by faith and being taught of Him.
But to further muddy your understanding, I will also warn you that if you had read the Bible, with original language and the Spirit, you would have read that Jesus also admits that He is the Holy Spirit. Many times.
Repent, dear deceived soul. Repent while there is still time. Lean not on your own understanding and being wise in your own eyes.
The true danger in this understanding, is if you are wrong about the foundation, then this whole blog is built on a faulty foundation. I assume you will be too busy defending your own wisdom and beloved understanding and ideas. No need to reply. It’s irrelevant to me. But that each one will come to KNOW God and be known by Him, in truth. That will determine if the door is open to that soul.
Who is the door opener? who is the Lord that will declare depart from me? But only God can judge and condemn. You have many discrepancies that you have not reconciled. I pray you will be able to even admit that you need to.
Maranatha!
Dear Tara,
I read the Bible different from you. There are many statements which indirectly imply who God is, but, much more important, there are a few places that directly define God:
“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Cor. 8:6).
“There is … one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (E[ph. 4:4).
“There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 1:5).
I assume that you believe what you believe because that is what people taught you. I would recommend that you study the Bible to arrive at your Christology. For example, search for the phrase “true God,” or take an entire book, like Revelation, and read it with the goal of understanding only this one thing; what does it say about Jesus?
Andries
you are anti christ!.in revelation tells that whoever considered JeSUS Christ is Not God they are the anti Christ.
No, John wrote that he that denies that Jesus came in the flesh is the Antichrist (2 John 1:7). “Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22)
Andries if you deny that Jesus is God, you are a false prophet. Only a sinless God could die for my sins and save me. Jesus was and is God and man simultaneously. John the Baptist says in John 1:29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Only a sinless God can take away man’s sin. Therefore Andries, repent from this false teaching.
Neels
Firstly, you say “only a sinless God could die for my sins and save me.” I know that this is standard rhetoric, but where do you find it in the Bible? This seems to accept the general teaching that Jesus died to pacify an angry God. That is, in my view, not consistent with the Bible. It is the dominant view of God in Christianity, but still a heathen view of God. In the Bible, God saves us through Jesus, but it is God that saves. Perhaps my article WHY JESUS HAD TO DIE, will help.
Secondly, the New Testament uses the title God almost always exclusively for the One Whom Jesus called Father. Therefore, do not be too quick to call me a false prophet. It is interesting, in Church History, how easily people excommunicated other Christians with a different understanding of the Bible. We need a more nuanced view of Jesus. He is the First and the Last, but distinct from God. He has all power in heaven and on earth, but received it from God. He created all things, but it was God who created all things through Him. I do not think it is wrong to refer to Jesus as God, for He is extremely similar and close to God, but Jesus is clearly not the Invisible Source of all things.
1 John 5:7
Hi Lou
In the NASB 1 John 5:7-8 reads “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood.” You are probably using the KJV. Textual critics agree that the KJV contains a corrupted reading in this verse.
Hi Andries, regarding your comment above about “there are three that testify”…this is not a scripture about the trinity. It has wrongly been attributed to that doctrine by many, however, it in fact is nothing to do with it (even in the KJV version).
It does point to a very interesting debate however, Textus receptus vs critical texts (such as Codex Sinaiticus.
I am not a Baptists, i disagree with a number of Baptist doctrines vehemently (particularly southern baptists), however, I would urge you to take a look at Dr James Whites youtube channel on both the trinity and TR debates. He is an excellent resource with a lot of material (particularly debates with other scholars) about these two topics. Start off with youtube search of “trinity debate dr james white”. His youtube channel is https://www.youtube.com/c/AominOrg
Adam, I have listened to James White many times. I listen to all views over and over until it becomes clear (at least to me) where they deviate from the truth. You may listen to Dr Tuggy’s podcasts 181 and 182 for one response to James White.
God cannot die.
Hi Linda, that is very true…however, as an incarnate man, God most definitely can and did die. That is the point. “He lowered himself to his own creation and died for their sins”. I dont think we could ever understand how that is possible, but the bible clearly states he did exactly that
1. prophesied in Isaiah 7:4,
2. again in Isaiah 9:6,
3. Reiterated in Matthew 1:23
4. Fulfilled at the crucifixion
…a good question for heaven i think.